Original Q4 Design

[Michael Gallagher]

This is how Q4 looked at contract signing in December 1964 - long before James Gardner got his hands on her and gave us the 1969 QE2. Enjoy!

[Beardy Rich]

Now look at those pictures and put your thumb over the funnel and see what it looks like

[Bob C.]

Looks a lot like Q3 but Q3's funnels were more of a traditional design departure than this Q4 rendition.

[Michael Gallagher]

It is interesting to see that from an external viewpoint just how backward thinking Cunard's Naval Architects were as this December 1964 Q4 seems to be an update of Cunard's March 1961 renderings of Q3. The October 1961 renderings of Q3, after James Gardner had got his hands on it, were quite different - just as the April 1967 unveiling to the world of Q4 (after Gardner's influence) showed a radically different profile for Q4.

However backward looking her exterior may have been in December 1964, inside she was a revolution with restaurants on the upper decks and every cabin with private facilities. But the design was living in a past age with its fixation on three classes.

[Clydebuilt1971]

The very top one looks very similar to the Saga & Vistfjord designs.

Gav

[Michael Gallagher]

I agree. The images somewhat do not fit in with how you'd imagine a 58,000-ton ship.

[bulkheadstop]

Thank god they came up with a new funnel design, that was key to her having individuality and has helped her to stay modern and like concorde a design that is close to perfect.

[Bob C.]

Found what seems to be another rendition of the original Q4 design.  The photo below is taken from this website:  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/passenger-comp.htm

[Michael Gallagher]

Bob - that image is Q3. You can tell by the open and enclosed promenade design in the superstructure.

[Bob C.]

Thanks Flagship.  This version is much different than the Q3 model depicted in Potter and Frost's "QE2".  That Q3 version looked more like the 1969 QE2 with a few differences in the funnel(s) and mast.  The above photo looks more like the original Q4 concepts you've posted above.   

I'm constantly tempted to scan that Q3 photo and post here but I am unsure of the copyright rules and don't want to get Rob or this fourm in trouble. Sure would help to display the photo though...

[Michael Gallagher]

Bob - the image you posted above was the original March 1961 (Cunard designed) look of Q3 - with a funnel added later. The Q3 in the Potter and Frost book was the how Q3 looked in October 1961 (and about to be canceleld) after James Gardner had got his hands on it.

Just like the very top image I posted was how Q4 looked in December 1964 and we all know we got a totally different Q4 in the
end after Gardner had weaved his magic.

[Bob C.]

Thanks the Lord for Mr Gardner!!!  He really had a talent for his craft, at least moreso than those responsible for the original Q3 and Q4 concepts.

[Michael Gallagher]

But Gardner did also give us the Cunard Adventurer and Cunard Ambassador Bob!!!!

[Bob C.]

Nobody's perfect. 

[highlander0108]

But Gardner did also give us the Cunard Adventurer and Cunard Ambassador Bob!!!!

Wow, the Adventurer is an "interesting" looking ship.  I had to Google it.  Yeeks!  I'd file that one under "what were they thinking."  Why the prominent appendages off the strangely forward sloping QE2 inspired funnel?  THey look like minature cranes.
http://www.simplonpc.co.uk/CunardLine.html

[Michael Gallagher]

Further to my placing the external profiles of the original design for Q4 above, this would have been the break down of public rooms:

Bridge Deck
Grille Room
Casino
Passage and Stair

Sports Deck   
Passage and Stair
Forward Passage
Tourist Class Entrance
Tourist Class Stair

Mezzanine Deck
Tourist Class Observation Lounge
Entrance Hall
Stairway

Boat Deck
Tourist Class Cocktail Lounge
Tourist Class Bar
Tourist Class Library
Bowling Alley
Teenagers Room
Verandah Lounge
Playroom
Nursery and Crèche
Entrance and Passage Stairs x 2
Tourist Lounge
Beauty Parlour and Barbers
Forward Passage and Entrance
Stairway Forward
Shop
Synagogue

Verandah Deck
Cabin Class Cocktail Bar
Cabin Class Lounge
Stair and Vestibule
Cabin Class Library
Conference Room
Passage, port side
Theatre (auditorium balcony)
First / Cabin Class Teenagers Room
Cabin Class Cocktail Bar and Lounge
First Class Playroom
Cabin Class Playroom and Crèche
Children’s Dining Room
Stairs x 2
Cabin / Tourist Class Restaurant

Promenade Deck
First Class Nightclub
Stairway x 2
Entrance
First Class Lounge
Enclosed Promenade (port and starboard)
First Class Cocktail Lounge and Bar
First Class Smoking Room
First Class Library
Entrance Hall
First Class Club Room
Stairway (aft)
Stairs (forward) x 2
First Class Restaurant (raised roof over foyer)
Tourist Class Stair (forward)

Main Deck
Cabin Class Beauty Parlour
Cabin Class Barber
First Class Beauty Parlour
First Class Barber
First Class Entrance (amidships)
Stairways x 2
Tourist Class Entrance (forward)
Staircase

Foyer Deck
Cabin Class Entrances
Shop
Cabin Class Stair
First Class Entrance (amidships)
First Class Shop
First Class Stairway
Tourist Class Entrance (forward)
Tourist Class Stairway

A Deck
First Class Entrance (amidships)
First Class Shop
Tourist Class Entrance (forward)
Tourist Class Stairway

B Deck
Cabin and Tourist Class Entrance (amidships)
Cabin and Tourist Class Stairway (amidships)
Cabin and Class Tourist Entrance (forward)
Cabin and Tourist Class Stairway (forward)

C Deck
Tourist Class Entrance (forward)
Tourist Class Stairway (forward)

D Deck
First and Cabin Class Swimming Pool, Bar and Treatment Rooms

E Deck
Tourist Class Swimming Pool and Bar

[Bob C.]

I find this extremely interesting.  To see what was first conceived and then compare it to what she eventually became is wonderful.  I find myself mentally touring the initial concept arrangements deck by deck starting at the Bridge Deck (Signal Deck) casino and grille (I wonder where they would have put them) down to the E Deck (7 Deck) pool.

[Michael Gallagher]

Bob

I should have said that the list of rooms for each deck reads from aft to forward when looking at the plans.

The Grill Room and Casino were to be incorporated into the bottom of the funnel.

[Bob C.]

The Grill Room and Casino were to be incorporated into the bottom of the funnel.

That would have been great.  I wonder how this would have affected (then) future modifications over the years.  The casino always seemed a bit out of place to me where it was.  The ammenities at the base fo the funnel would have put QE2 years ahead of her time as many cruise ships have and are going with this concept - see the new Disney Wonder's forward funnel as an example.

[Michael Gallagher]

They hummed and harred about the location for a long time and then decided that the then American Gambling laws would have meant that the Casino would have had to have been dismantled the night before arrival in any American port. The Casino was to be put into where the Conference Room was (aft of the Queens Room on the starboard side) in 1969. The gambling laws had relaxed enough by 1972 to allow Trafalgar House to build the Casino then and where it remained until retirement.

[Michael Gallagher]

The design evolves. This is the list of public rooms in May 1965 while she was still three-class in design.

Boat Deck
First Class Playroom
First Class Nursery
Cabin Class Crèche
Cabin Class Nursery
Cabin Class Playroom
Tourist Class Beauty Parlour and Barbers
Tourist Class Shop
Tourist Class Cocktail Lounge
Tourist Class Playroom
Tourist Class Nursery
Tourist Class Crèche
Tourist Class Verandah Lounge
Tourist Class Library
Tourist Class Lounge
Conference Room – all classes
Theatre (balcony) – all classes

Intermediate Deck



Verandah Deck
First Class Teenagers Room
Cabin Class Cocktail Lounge
Cabin Class Teenagers Room
Cabin Class Library
Cabin Class Shop
Cabin Class Lounge
Cabin Class Verandah Bar
Cabin and Tourist Class Restaurant
Tourist Class Observation Lounge
Tourist Class Teenagers’ Room
Theatre – all classes

Promenade Deck
First Class Grill Room
First Class Restaurant
First Class Verandah Lounges (port and starboard)
First Class Casino
First Class Smoking Room
First Class Cocktail Bar
First Class Lounge
First Class Library
First Class Lido Lounge and Night Club

Main Deck
First Class Grill Room Bar
First Class Shop
First Class Beauty Parlour
First Class Barbers Shop
Cabin Class Beauty Parlour
Cabin Class Barbers Shop
Cabin and Tourist Class Shop

Foyer Deck
Main Entrances    Forward (Tourist Class)
      Midships (First Class)
      Aft (Cabin Class)

A Deck

B Deck

C Deck

D Deck
First Class Swimming Pool, Massage, Vapour Rooms

E Deck
Cabin and Tourist Class Swimming Pool

[Michael Gallagher]

And then in February 1966 (still three-class)

Sports Deck   
Children’s Room

Boat Deck
Tourist Cocktail Lounge
Tourist Verandah Lounge
Tourist Lounge
Conference Room

Verandah Deck
Tourist Observation Lounge
Cabin and Tourist Restaurant
Cabin Cocktail Lounge
Cabin Lounge
Cabin Verandah Bar
Theatre
Tourist Teenagers’ Room

Promenade Deck
Grill Room
First Class Restaurant
First Class Smokeroom
First Class Cocktail Lounge
First Class Lounge
First Class Side Lounge

Main Deck
   

Foyer Deck
Main Entrances    Forward (Tourist Class)
      Midships (First Class)
      Aft (Cabin Class)

A Deck




B Deck


C Deck


D Deck
First Class Swimming Pool

E Deck
Cabin and Tourist Class Swimming Pool

[Michael Gallagher]

And then in May 1966 - this was the month the decision was taken to make Q4 two-class so this is the final three-class layout:

Sports Deck   
Children’s Room

Boat Deck
Tourist Cocktail Lounge
Teenagers Room
Theatre Balcony
Shops
Upper Main Lounge

Verandah Deck
Tourist Observation Lounge
Cabin / Tourist Restaurant
Theatre
Cabin Cocktail Lounge
Main Lounge

Promenade Deck
Grill Room
First Class Restaurant
First Class Library
First Class Smoking Room
First Class Cocktail Lounge
First Class Lounge
First Class Lido Lounge

Main Deck
Grill Room Bar
Shops
First Class Beauty Parlour
Cabin Class Beauty Parlour

Foyer Deck
Main Entrances    Forward (Tourist Class)
      Midships (First Class)
      Aft (Cabin Class)

[Thad]

This looks very similar to the Harland Wolfe design image of the Q4

[Twynkle]

Hi Thad - thank you for this.
It looks interesting, and in great detail,  although in several respects quite different to the finished profile of QE2.
I wonder whether it's possible for you to tell us what the markings are at the foot of the picture, and maybe there are some on the back too.
Do you by any chance have a picture of the Harland and Wolf version?

Looking at the mast here, it's interesting to imagine how different the ships masts of today would be had not QE2 been given her splendid and distinctive one!
Thanks again
Rosie.

[Peter Mugridge]

That's a nice image; unmistakably QE2 despite the various differences, and a very interesting variation on traditional funnel design - I quite like it.

[Lynda Bradford]

Looking at what the original Q4 design 50 after the ship was planned makes for some interesting reading. 

It is especially interesting to see the original breakdown of public rooms and how the design team progressed the design.  But as I found it a bit difficult to get my head around the changes just looking at the posts,  I have listed in a spreadsheet to make comparisons easier. If I can find the final deck plan design I can will add that so that we can see from initial three class to two class deck plans designs 

I use excel on an Apple Mac, so I saved the spreadsheet with two different extensions so hopefully those who do not use Apple can still access. 

[Lynda Bradford]

I have done some further work adding the deck plan information for "preliminary deck plan 1968" and "1997 deck plan" which I found useful comparing what was planned in 1966 to how I remember the ship when I first sailed on her in 1997. 

When looking at the 3 class system planned for 1966 I found it incredible that children were to be separated by class in the creche and nursery facilities.  Even teenagers were to be separated. 

Where the deck names have changed I have matched up the planned names shown in 1964 to 1965 versions with the actual names of the more up to date deck plans.  I hope these are matched correctly but they seem to correspond. 

[Alan Snelson]

Very interesting information Lynda, thanks for all your work in putting it all together. It is remarkable to see the changing ideas being developed as different demands came to the fore.

I wonder how much influence the rapidly changing social order taking place in the 1960's had in the decisions that were made and the configuration at launch.

One thing I notice is that there is no mention of the location for the Casino on Upper deck. Was the Casino in place from the Maiden voyage or did it come later?

[Lynda Bradford]

One thing I notice is that there is no mention of the location for the Casino on Upper deck. Was the Casino in place from the Maiden voyage or did it come later?

Michael mention in an earlier post the constraints regarding the Casino, which in also interesting

They hummed and harred about the location for a long time and then decided that the then American Gambling laws would have meant that the Casino would have had to have been dismantled the night before arrival in any American port. The Casino was to be put into where the Conference Room was (aft of the Queens Room on the starboard side) in 1969. The gambling laws had relaxed enough by 1972 to allow Trafalgar House to build the Casino then and where it remained until retirement.

[Twynkle]

Hello Michael
Please! Firstly - Do you know whether there are any old photos of the architects at work with their plans for Q4 / QE2 on the drawing boards?
Were these (plans) all made in Liverpool?
I believe some of the people involved in QE2's later drawings (including refits) may have had desks at Lloyds Registry in Fenchurch St in London.
Do you think there'll still be plans in situ there now?

Many thanks
Rosie.

[Michael Gallagher]

Rosie

I do have pictures of people working on plans for Q4. Plans will have been drawn up all over the country and then submitted to the Cunard Building in Liverpool and the yard.

Michael

[Michael Gallagher]

Dan Wallace and Cunard Chairman Sir John Brocklebank studying early Q4 plans (pre 1966) in the Cunard Building in Liverpool. Note the image of Queen Elizabeth behind and a 'tame' calendar on the wall.

[Twynkle]

Thank you so much for these, Michael
(Memories, happy ones -  flooding back!)

Interesting to think that The Original Team 'TQS' began here, and that we followed in their footsteps along the passages in that lovely building just last year!
The Liverpool building is  'friendly' with a feel of excitement and 'business' - so different to the cathedral-like Cunard Building at 25 Broadway, NYC.

[June Ingram]

Thank you very much, Michael, for posting these marvelous photos of the beginnings of QE2 !