Author Topic: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'  (Read 32145 times)

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Offline CAP

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #30 on: Sep 09, 2010, 08:22 AM »

So if Cunard were on its knees when it BUILT QE2, and needed a loan to do so, how did they pay the loan back so quickly?  How did they survive at all if she wasn't making money?

There were a number of factors that enabled Cunard to pay the loan back.   In fact whilst there was one overall loan, it was made up in two stages due to the increased costs of the ships.  The original loan was for £17.6million and increased to £24million in 1967.  Significantly, the loan would not come into force until the company took delivery of the ship.  As such Cunard had to use the loan as a means of persuading a consortium of banks into providing the funding during the build.  Once achieved this then allowed Cunard to pay for the ship at contract signing (at the original tendered value) which triggered a government investment bonus of £5million.

Add to that the disposal of Cunard's 30% share in BOAC which realised a further cash injection off £11.5milliion (Cunard had paid £8.5million when the new company was created some two or so years earlier).

Disposal of the majority of the existing passenger fleet also added considerable sums to the company coffers, Carinthia & Sylvania for £2.5million, Caronia for £1.25million, Queen Elizabeth £3.25million and Queen Mary for £1.25 million.

Within the organisation itself there were many changes, the company’s operating efficiency was increasing through radical changes in its cost base and structure.

When QE2 was finally accepted by Cunard the compnay had put itself in a position of not requiring £4million of the final loan amount.
« Last Edit: Sep 09, 2010, 07:32 PM by cap0557 »

Offline Michael Gallagher

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #31 on: Sep 09, 2010, 07:44 PM »
L Gregory: this all got me delving into my Q3 boxes and I have found transcripts (which I never knew I had) of TV and Radio interviews your grandfather gave after his Victory. If you would like me to send copies - please let me know. Fascinating stuff and he put is case very well. Did not realise he was in PR!
« Last Edit: Sep 09, 2010, 07:46 PM by flagship »

Offline Lachlan

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #32 on: Sep 10, 2010, 05:59 AM »
At the risk of taking the discussion in a slightly different direction, the experts who contribute to this forum might be able to help me with a question. I am doing some research into QE 2 with a view to making a detailed model of this great ship. I am in the throes of completing a 1:96 scale model of Oriana (1) and am now looking at my next project.

I have obtained copies of detailed line drawings of QE2 from the University of Glasgow archives which will be of enormous assistance in modelling the ship.  If, that is, they are actually the plans of QE2.

As we are all aware QE2 was design number 736 of John Brown Shipbuilders, but the plans I have show design number 1736 and are dated 1961 –  before QE2 (ie Q4) was designed. I suspect that what has been supplied to me are (unbeknown to the institution that suppled them) actually plans of Q3. The notations on the plans show line drawings of ship number 1736 and are date- stamped 11 August 1961. According to Potter and Frost, the decision to make a new start with Q4 was taken in January 1963. Moreover, the details on the plans show a ship with a length between perpendiculars of 942’ and a waterline length of 974’. This would have given an overall length of over 1,000 feet.  QE2 which was ship number 736 of course has a length between perpendiculars of 885’ and an overall length of 936’.

The plans sent by University of Glasgow (and which weren't cheap) were catalogued as QE2 so they must have a link to QE2. But what are they? Can anybody help?

Offline Michael Gallagher

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #33 on: Sep 10, 2010, 07:27 AM »
Lachlan - you do have Q3 plans. My Q3 plans are stamped the same.

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #34 on: Sep 10, 2010, 11:54 AM »
Seeing as we have such experts with us about this subject, is it possible to have a couple of images of Q3 to illustrate the story?
Passionate about QE2's service life for 40 years and creator of this website.  I have worked in IT for 28 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: QE2's 1961 False Start
« Reply #35 on: Sep 10, 2010, 01:05 PM »
What is more interesting is that Trafalgar House / Cunard did plan Q5 in the late 1980s. She would have entered service in 1991 and perhaps would have shortened the life of our beloved Queen by 5 - 10 years!! Q5 would have been very revolutionary - the plans show a twin-funnelled, 90,000-ton ship capable of 40 knots! (gas turbines) to make the crossing in 3.5 - 4 days. She would have been three-class roo with a Super Deluxe, First and Tourist. The Tourist passengers would have had buffet food - for which they would pay extra (way ahead of the Aida and Ocean Village concept). QE2 would hve been assigned to Pacific cruises leaving Q5 on the Atlantic. So, things could have been very different.... Q5 was eventually cancelled because Trafalgar House couldn't agree on the final design and costs were spiralling.

But they did develop the SWIFT Concept in the mid-1990s which would have been unlike any other ship!

For the ensuing discussion about Q5 & SWIFT - Please go to this topic - https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,2404
« Last Edit: Sep 10, 2010, 01:10 PM by Rob Lightbody »
Passionate about QE2's service life for 40 years and creator of this website.  I have worked in IT for 28 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Greg78uk

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Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #36 on: Sep 10, 2010, 07:00 PM »
The only place I have seen an actual image of the intended Q3 is in Carol Thatchers book on the QE2, I'm sure there must be more, does anybody know where one might find one?

'Flagship' I would be fascenated to see copies of the interviews Grandfather gave over Q3, I didn't even know such things existed!!!!

Offline Twynkle

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #37 on: Sep 11, 2010, 10:02 AM »
Hello!

Athough there are no images of Q3 in Potter and Frost's book, (QE2 - Queen Elizabeth 2: The Authorised Story 1969. London : Harrap SBN 245 5944 2)  on page 26 there's a paragraph:

    'At this meeting...Sir John said, "...Any ship is a gamble....We are confident that the new ship [Q4] will make a substantial profit, if we  get the terms we want."
Mr Raymond Gregory, a shareholder and the Manchester advertising man who had led the shareholders revolt against Q3 as being unsuitable and uneconomic, now declared, "Either Cunard must build this ship, or it must die".

L. Gregory - this book is becoming rare - if you haven't got it, you might find it useful for reference as well as other photographs.
There are 6 second-hand copies at Amazon UK at the moment - (via The QE2 Story Shop, on the home page!)
(Will keep an eye open for photos of Q3...)

There will be others too who know more about publishing 'small volumes', have you thought of contacting private publishers?
It could be worth you looking at the back of monthly Shipping journals - Sea Breezes comes to mind! For more info -just send me a personal message for message via the Forum!

Just for 'interest', here's another link
http://www.gla.ac.uk/services/archives/exhibitions/qe2/anewcunardliner/
When you are in Liverpool, it might be worth asking the Curators office at the Maritime Museum whether they have information too. Have you thought of contacting any of the stockbrokers ?!

Rosie

Greg78uk

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Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #38 on: Sep 13, 2010, 08:43 PM »
Thanks Twynkle, I have ordered a copy of the book. It is strange they called Grandfather "An advertising man" he was Public relations and training manager for British Carborundum.... I am presently in the middle of reading Carol Thatcher's book on the QE2 which has some information on the Q3 false start, it is very good, although it doesn't mention him, just briefly states that the Shareholders pleaded with Cunard to scrap Q3 in 1961. But she does have a print of a painting done of the planned ship.

I was at the Liverpool Maritime Museum about two weeks ago looking through the Q3 archives they have there, it's mainly the tenders from the different ship yards and a few large plans, the next plan is to go to Liverpool University to look at the company admin papers and Brocklebanks papers. I very nearly have all the information together, then I need to construct it into something usuable!!!!

Online Bob C.

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #39 on: Sep 13, 2010, 08:49 PM »
Athough there are no images of Q3 in Potter and Frost's book, (QE2 - Queen Elizabeth 2: The Authorised Story 1969. London : Harrap SBN 245 5944 2)  on page 26 there's a paragraph:

Rosie,
    There is a photo of a Q3 model in the Potter and Frost book.  See posts 5 and 6 on this thread: https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,525.0.html
« Last Edit: Sep 13, 2010, 08:53 PM by Bob C. »

Offline Twynkle

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #40 on: Sep 13, 2010, 09:58 PM »
Rosie,
    There is a photo of a Q3 model in the Potter and Frost book.  See posts 5 and 6 on this thread: https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,525.0.html


Thank you Bob - and sincere apologies, too.

L. Gregory - When it arrives, you will find Models of Q 3 and Q4  - opposite p17 in Potter and Frost!

Online Bob C.

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #41 on: Sep 14, 2010, 01:52 AM »
No apology necessary Rosie!  That's what the forum is all about - keeping the legend alive!

Offline Lachlan

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #42 on: Sep 14, 2010, 04:15 AM »
Thanks, Flagship, I am relieved but disappointed to have my suspicion confirmed. I thought it was too good to be true to get the body line drawings of QE2. I searched everywhere for the line drawings of Oriana (1) and in the end had to draft them by superimposing deck plans using a very detailed GA I was given by a former P&O executive for elevations.

We are all aware that Oriana is part of the QE2 story because she turned out to be a sort of test bed for some of the key parameters that QE2 adopted, such as demonstrating that a large, fast twin screw design was feasible as well as confirming the benefits of aluminium construction of the superstructure. I could provide a picture of my model if anyone is interested, but this forum is pretty one-eyed QE2 so I won't go there unless there is some interest.

Does anyone know where the line drawings of QE2 might be available from?

Online Lynda Bradford

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #43 on: Sep 14, 2010, 09:29 AM »
. I could provide a picture of my model if anyone is interested, but this forum is pretty one-eyed QE2 so I won't go there unless there is some interest.

Have a look at the Sea Shanties section on the forum.  This would be an appropriate area to post a photo and more information about your Oriana model.  The main focus for the forum is the QE2 but members like to hear about other ships as well and it is always interesting to learn more about maritime history. 
I was proud to be involved with planning QE2's 50 year conference in September 2017 in Clydebank
www.qe2event.com

Online Bob C.

Re: QE2's 1961 False Start - 'Q3'
« Reply #44 on: Sep 14, 2010, 04:41 PM »
Does anyone know where the line drawings of QE2 might be available from?

About 10 years ago I inquired via email at the University of Glasgow.  The archives librarian stated he had them and that they were available for copying for a nominal fee.  I never followed through but plan to reengage at some point.  Hope that helps.

 

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