QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.

[Barumfox]

Thomas was quite right about the final eastbound transatlantic tandem being around 25-26 knots - by noon on the final day at sea - 21st October the two ships had covered 2731 NM at an average speed of 25.5 knots - basically a standard six day crossing.

However the first tandem in April 2004 was not a standard crossing as the ships left their berths late  - QE2 later than planned - and stopped for fireworks at the Statue of Liberty so clearing New York about 3 to 4 hours later than usual and then had an early afternoon appointment with a publicity helicopter and RAF Nimrod and Hawk off Cornwall on the 5th day so this called for (all 23 hour days) :

by Noon 26th - 311 miles at average 26.8Kts as gaining speed from dropping pilot - at noon doing 28.5 knots.
Noon 27th - 657miles at average 28.56
Noon 28th  - 649 miles - average 28.22
Noon 29th - 641 miles - average 27.87
Noon 30th - 644 miles -average 28.00

Total for four full days run - 2591 at average 28.16 knots - or  including the first half day 2902 at 28.01 knots.

At noon on the 30th we were longitude 6. 44W - as Bishops Rock is 6.26 W - I make this 18 miles to the traditional Blue Riband end point which could have taken us less than 40 minutes as we were still doing 28.5 knots at noon in a Force 6  - had been Force 3 to 4 most of the way across. The crossing time to Bishops Rock if 28.5 was maintained would have been about 4 days 12 hours 25 mins by my calculations (104 hours 25 mins hours for 2920 miles)

Therefore QM2 is (or certainly was) a genuine 28.5 knot crossing ship - I have no doubt that the first days run could have been maintained the whole way if it had been necessary to make up the time lost on departure. It was also nice that on her last crossing as flagship QE2 had done a days run at her old service speed - and that the overall speed above to Noon  was virtually the same as on her crossing May 2nd to May 7th 1969 - which was 28.02 knots.

QM2 is therefore 4th on the Cunard fastest crossing list - after Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and QE2 in that order - with the Mauretania 5th with her amazing 27.22 in 1929 - if she had been allowed another crack at regaining the Riband from the Bremen in more favourable weather conditions she may have done a 28 knot crossing as well.

Gary Petersen

[Oceanic]

Thomas was quite right about the final eastbound transatlantic tandem being around 25-26 knots - by noon on the final day at sea - 21st October the two ships had covered 2731 NM at an average speed of 25.5 knots - basically a standard six day crossing.

However the first tandem in April 2004 was not a standard crossing as the ships left their berths late  - QE2 later than planned - and stopped for fireworks at the Statue of Liberty so clearing New York about 3 to 4 hours later than usual and then had an early afternoon appointment with a publicity helicopter and RAF Nimrod and Hawk off Cornwall on the 5th day so this called for (all 23 hour days) :

by Noon 26th - 311 miles at average 26.8Kts as gaining speed from dropping pilot - at noon doing 28.5 knots.
Noon 27th - 657miles at average 28.56
Noon 28th  - 649 miles - average 28.22
Noon 29th - 641 miles - average 27.87
Noon 30th - 644 miles -average 28.00

Total for four full days run - 2591 at average 28.16 knots - or  including the first half day 2902 at 28.01 knots.

At noon on the 30th we were longitude 6. 44W - as Bishops Rock is 6.26 W - I make this 18 miles to the traditional Blue Riband end point which could have taken us less than 40 minutes as we were still doing 28.5 knots at noon in a Force 6  - had been Force 3 to 4 most of the way across. The crossing time to Bishops Rock if 28.5 was maintained would have been about 4 days 12 hours 25 mins by my calculations (104 hours 25 mins hours for 2920 miles)

Therefore QM2 is (or certainly was) a genuine 28.5 knot crossing ship - I have no doubt that the first days run could have been maintained the whole way if it had been necessary to make up the time lost on departure. It was also nice that on her last crossing as flagship QE2 had done a days run at her old service speed - and that the overall speed above to Noon  was virtually the same as on her crossing May 2nd to May 7th 1969 - which was 28.02 knots.

QM2 is therefore 4th on the Cunard fastest crossing list - after Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and QE2 in that order - with the Mauretania 5th with her amazing 27.22 in 1929 - if she had been allowed another crack at regaining the Riband from the Bremen in more favourable weather conditions she may have done a 28 knot crossing as well.

Gary Petersen

Thank you for this brilliant breakdown of QM2's fastest crossing; it is incredible to see just how fast she can be while making her muzzling by Cunard even more disappointing!

On a side note, it's amazing to see just how fast the old Mauretania was despite her age; the old girl never stopped kicking until the very end!

[Thomas Hypher]

Thomas was quite right about the final eastbound transatlantic tandem being around 25-26 knots - by noon on the final day at sea - 21st October the two ships had covered 2731 NM at an average speed of 25.5 knots - basically a standard six day crossing.

However the first tandem in April 2004 was not a standard crossing as the ships left their berths late  - QE2 later than planned - and stopped for fireworks at the Statue of Liberty so clearing New York about 3 to 4 hours later than usual and then had an early afternoon appointment with a publicity helicopter and RAF Nimrod and Hawk off Cornwall on the 5th day so this called for (all 23 hour days) :

by Noon 26th - 311 miles at average 26.8Kts as gaining speed from dropping pilot - at noon doing 28.5 knots.
Noon 27th - 657miles at average 28.56
Noon 28th  - 649 miles - average 28.22
Noon 29th - 641 miles - average 27.87
Noon 30th - 644 miles -average 28.00

Total for four full days run - 2591 at average 28.16 knots - or  including the first half day 2902 at 28.01 knots.

At noon on the 30th we were longitude 6. 44W - as Bishops Rock is 6.26 W - I make this 18 miles to the traditional Blue Riband end point which could have taken us less than 40 minutes as we were still doing 28.5 knots at noon in a Force 6  - had been Force 3 to 4 most of the way across. The crossing time to Bishops Rock if 28.5 was maintained would have been about 4 days 12 hours 25 mins by my calculations (104 hours 25 mins hours for 2920 miles)

Therefore QM2 is (or certainly was) a genuine 28.5 knot crossing ship - I have no doubt that the first days run could have been maintained the whole way if it had been necessary to make up the time lost on departure. It was also nice that on her last crossing as flagship QE2 had done a days run at her old service speed - and that the overall speed above to Noon  was virtually the same as on her crossing May 2nd to May 7th 1969 - which was 28.02 knots.

QM2 is therefore 4th on the Cunard fastest crossing list - after Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and QE2 in that order - with the Mauretania 5th with her amazing 27.22 in 1929 - if she had been allowed another crack at regaining the Riband from the Bremen in more favourable weather conditions she may have done a 28 knot crossing as well.

Gary Petersen

Thank you Gary! My memory of the tandem is getting, well... more distant with nearly 10 years elapsed! Holy Nougat's post in the topic Rosie linked to in her above post is quite enlightening regarding QM2's capabilities in 2004 and her capabilities now:

I spent around 4 years on QE2 and 5 years on QM2 as a Deck Officer - QE2 was faster, for sure.
QM2's service speed was basically her top speed, whereas QE2's service speed was significantly lower than her top speed. I say 'was' for QM2, because she is now slower than she was when she entered service due to load restrictions on the DG's.
QE2 was just as fast at the end as she was when converted to Diesel.
The whole service speed thing is a bit of a con anyway - very few ships go around at a set speed, service speed gives the impression that it is somehow the most efficient speed, whereas it seldom is.
My current command apparently has a service speed of 17.0 Knots - simply put - it does not.

This seems to tally with your data on the final tandem with QE2 in October 2008, the upper limit of QM2's speeds in recent years (27 knots or so), and the general consensus as stated by Oceanic.

[Oceanic]

And I right in saying QM2 is still the fastest large passenger ship in service? With QE2 permenantly moored and the only other active liners, Marco Polo and Astoria, both running slower cruise duties is there any ship that can challenge her 25-28 knot sustainable speed and 30 knot sprint pace?

[Thomas Hypher]

And I right in saying QM2 is still the fastest large passenger ship in service? With QE2 permenantly moored and the only other active liners, Marco Polo and Astoria, both running slower cruise duties is there any ship that can challenge her 25-28 knot sustainable speed and 30 knot sprint pace?

There are a pair of cruise ships that were built at Blohm + Voss in the Millennium that can achieve 28 knots (both have been involved in freak wave/storm incidence where they got into difficulties due to their design), and a number of large "cruise" type ferries that can operate at speeds in the 28 to 30 knot region. Having said this, QM2 is the largest by far of the faster contemporary passenger ships. Marco Polo and Astoria never being designed for speed in their original lives as Aleksandr Pushkin and Stockholm.

[Rob Lightbody]

She exceeded 26 knots today, en route to Singapore.

[Barumfox]

26 knots is respectable  - not many cruise ships can do this although i was on Oriana when she did 26.1 current assisted attempting to get to Naples on time in 2012. I believe I read somewhere that a couple of the NCL ships are capable of 28 but have no confirmation of this.

It is sad to hear her performance is now compromised compared to 2004. This must have happened sometime after the the final tandem with QE2 in October 2008 as one noon announcement on QE2 stated the ships were currently doing 29 knots - this was confirmed by the Chief Engineer Paul Yeoman at a cocktail party later  - he said he did not know why - just an instruction from the bridge. As QM2 went straight to Germany for a refit after reaching Southampton maybe the work was carried out then and her Captain just wanted to stretch her legs one last time - certainly Ian MacNaught would have been happy to do so as well.

The reduction in maximum speed is obviously another reason why they extended crossings to 7 days apart from fuel costs as she has less in reserve to make up for delays on a 6 day and being even a few hours behind schedule obviously leads to major problems with such short turnarounds in port these days.

Going back to the original Mauretania's attempt to regain the Blue Riband in 1929 she did the last 106 miles to Cherbourg at an average of 29.7 kts to demonstrate what could have been - then used to do 32 knots in the Gulf Stream on Caribbean cruises.

Gary.

[Oceanic]

26 knots is respectable  - not many cruise ships can do this although i was on Oriana when she did 26.1 current assisted attempting to get to Naples on time in 2012. I believe I read somewhere that a couple of the NCL ships are capable of 28 but have no confirmation of this.

It is sad to hear her performance is now compromised compared to 2004. This must have happened sometime after the the final tandem with QE2 in October 2008 as one noon announcement on QE2 stated the ships were currently doing 29 knots - this was confirmed by the Chief Engineer Paul Yeoman at a cocktail party later  - he said he did not know why - just an instruction from the bridge. As QM2 went straight to Germany for a refit after reaching Southampton maybe the work was carried out then and her Captain just wanted to stretch her legs one last time - certainly Ian MacNaught would have been happy to do so as well.

The reduction in maximum speed is obviously another reason why they extended crossings to 7 days apart from fuel costs as she has less in reserve to make up for delays on a 6 day and being even a few hours behind schedule obviously leads to major problems with such short turnarounds in port these days.

Going back to the original Mauretania's attempt to regain the Blue Riband in 1929 she did the last 106 miles to Cherbourg at an average of 29.7 kts to demonstrate what could have been - then used to do 32 knots in the Gulf Stream on Caribbean cruises.

Gary.

29.7 knots is an outstanding speed for a vessel of any era, let alone a ship of Mauretania’s age. You have to wonder how differently things might have been had the weather been more in Mauretania’s favour; it may have even extended her service life if she regained her greatest selling point, and would have certainly embarrassed the German liners Bremen and Europa!

[Barumfox]

Possibly but it was the Great Depression that sent her cruising not the Bremen!

Trying to get back on thread I believe the QM2's 2004 crossing speed would put her 9th on the all time list behind United States, France*, QM, Normandie, QE, QE2, Rex, Bremen and ahead of Europa, Conte di Savoia and Mauretania.

* Do not have a record figure for France but second highest trial speed after SSUS and service speed of 31 knots - placed second for these reasons alone but may be lower in order  - any information gratefully received.

I am not aware if  Raffaello or Michelangelo - which did over 30 knots on trials - and which had an official service speed of 26.5 knots did any crossings over 27 knots.

Gary Petersen 

[Oceanic]

Possibly but it was the Great Depression that sent her cruising not the Bremen!

Trying to get back on thread I believe the QM2's 2004 crossing speed would put her 9th on the all time list behind United States, France*, QM, Normandie, QE, QE2, Rex, Bremen and ahead of Europa, Conte di Savoia and Mauretania.

* Do not have a record figure for France but second highest trial speed after SSUS and service speed of 31 knots - placed second for these reasons alone but may be lower in order  - any information gratefully received.

I am not aware if  Raffaello or Michelangelo - which did over 30 knots on trials - and which had an official service speed of 26.5 knots did any crossings over 27 knots.

Gary Petersen

Thank you for taking the time to compile these statistics; it helps enormously in getting and pinpointing QM2's true speed.

It's impressive she is as fast as she is, considering the 65,542 GRT difference between QM2 and the formerly largest liner record holder Queen Elizabeth; and the former's power disadvantage when compared to older liners also works against her when the subject of speed comes up.

[Barumfox]

Yes QM2 does have a power deficit against the original Queens and is much larger GRT wise but her actual displacement (weight) is fairly similar to the QM & QE at around 80,000 tons. QE2 is just under 50,000 displacement i believe.

There is also the issue of air and water resistance to take account of - not sure which Queen would have an advantage on these - although QE2 and QE appear the most streamlined above the waterline. The shape of Normandie's Yourkevitch hull was supposed to be superior to the QM's - but I am not aware which, if any, post-war liners adopted it.

Gary

[Thomas Hypher]

The shape of Normandie's Yourkevitch hull was supposed to be superior to the QM's - but I am not aware which, if any, post-war liners adopted it.

Gary

Did SS France (1961) have a similar hull form to Normandie? Certainly bears a resemblance when looking beyond the similar paint scheme. I've always liked the "bow tie" type anchors on a side note!

[Oceanic]

Yes QM2 does have a power deficit against the original Queens and is much larger GRT wise but her actual displacement (weight) is fairly similar to the QM & QE at around 80,000 tons. QE2 is just under 50,000 displacement i believe.

There is also the issue of air and water resistance to take account of - not sure which Queen would have an advantage on these - although QE2 and QE appear the most streamlined above the waterline. The shape of Normandie's Yourkevitch hull was supposed to be superior to the QM's - but I am not aware which, if any, post-war liners adopted it.

Gary

If we are measuring which of the Queen's hulls were the most efficient QM2 wins by a landslide due to her large bulb and sharply raked bow, both of which were built up over years of strenuous water-tank testing. QE2 would be a solid second, her hull and early bulb were revolutionary at the time and did an incredible job of parting the waves and bringing fuel costs down compared to other vessels of a similar age.

Yourkevitch's hull was a vast improvement over the likes of the Queen Mary's, enabling Normandie to compete with the QM's superior power and obtain similar speeds. However, the Second World War brought a temporary halt to the building of Atlantic Liners and when new superliners like the France and QE2 were finally constructed once more, newer hull technologies had rendered Yourkevitch's obsolete. It is worth noting, however, that QM2's raked bow is derived partly from Normandie, with the addition of the aforementioned bulb.
 
QM2 could make far better use of her brilliant hull if she was only given the power which graced the liners of past generations. If the original Queen Mary was able to obtain 31 Knots thanks to her 160,000 shp even with her terribly inefficient bow it makes you wonder what QM2 could hypothetically achieve with similar power figures.

[Barumfox]

Comparative power figures quoted for liners do vary with the source:

I believe the maximum QM & QE generated was actually about 212,000 and I have seen a figure of 195,000 for Normandie.

I believe the official figure for QM2 on entering service was 157,000 but Lloyds Register has a figure of over 172,000 according to one book I have.

QE2 was 110,000 as steamship and 130,000 after conversion to diesel.

How advanced was United States hull compared to Normandie's - or France's? Obviously her power - 240,000 + and aluminium construction were major factors of her speed.

I believe Bremen was first major liner with bulbous bow so Mauretania was really up against it!

[Oceanic]

Comparative power figures quoted for liners do vary with the source:

I believe the maximum QM & QE generated was actually about 212,000 and I have seen a figure of 195,000 for Normandie.

I believe the official figure for QM2 on entering service was 157,000 but Lloyds Register has a figure of over 172,000 according to one book I have.

QE2 was 110,000 as steamship and 130,000 after conversion to diesel.

How advanced was United States hull compared to Normandie's - or France's? Obviously her power - 240,000 + and aluminium construction were major factors of her speed.

I believe Bremen was first major liner with bulbous bow so Mauretania was really up against it!

To my knowledge the United States did not feature a particularly advanced hull design, instead, she toted a long used 'knife-edge' bow that narrowed sharply to the tip; it was actually far less advanced than the likes of the Normandie, evidenced by the enormous bow wave she created when venturing past 27 Knots or so. As a result, the United States relied more on her formidable power to weight ratio to claim the Blue Ribband, not superior hull design.

As previously discussed in the thread, QM2 performed a 28 Knot crossing when she was finally allowed without issue, despite her relatively conservative power figures for a ship of her size. That just goes to show how brilliant and efficient her hull is; if you give her fairly meagre power to the original Queen Mary or even the SS United States they would struggle in comparison to achieve what she can on the Atlantic.