Author Topic: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.  (Read 3182 times)

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Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #20 on: Apr 04, 2018, 10:47 PM »
She exceeded 26 knots today, en route to Singapore.
Passionate about QE2's service life for 37 years and creator of this website.  Worked in IT for 27 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Offline Barumfox

Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #21 on: Apr 04, 2018, 11:55 PM »
26 knots is respectable  - not many cruise ships can do this although i was on Oriana when she did 26.1 current assisted attempting to get to Naples on time in 2012. I believe I read somewhere that a couple of the NCL ships are capable of 28 but have no confirmation of this.

It is sad to hear her performance is now compromised compared to 2004. This must have happened sometime after the the final tandem with QE2 in October 2008 as one noon announcement on QE2 stated the ships were currently doing 29 knots - this was confirmed by the Chief Engineer Paul Yeoman at a cocktail party later  - he said he did not know why - just an instruction from the bridge. As QM2 went straight to Germany for a refit after reaching Southampton maybe the work was carried out then and her Captain just wanted to stretch her legs one last time - certainly Ian MacNaught would have been happy to do so as well.

The reduction in maximum speed is obviously another reason why they extended crossings to 7 days apart from fuel costs as she has less in reserve to make up for delays on a 6 day and being even a few hours behind schedule obviously leads to major problems with such short turnarounds in port these days.

Going back to the original Mauretania's attempt to regain the Blue Riband in 1929 she did the last 106 miles to Cherbourg at an average of 29.7 kts to demonstrate what could have been - then used to do 32 knots in the Gulf Stream on Caribbean cruises.

Gary.





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Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #22 on: Apr 05, 2018, 03:30 AM »
26 knots is respectable  - not many cruise ships can do this although i was on Oriana when she did 26.1 current assisted attempting to get to Naples on time in 2012. I believe I read somewhere that a couple of the NCL ships are capable of 28 but have no confirmation of this.

It is sad to hear her performance is now compromised compared to 2004. This must have happened sometime after the the final tandem with QE2 in October 2008 as one noon announcement on QE2 stated the ships were currently doing 29 knots - this was confirmed by the Chief Engineer Paul Yeoman at a cocktail party later  - he said he did not know why - just an instruction from the bridge. As QM2 went straight to Germany for a refit after reaching Southampton maybe the work was carried out then and her Captain just wanted to stretch her legs one last time - certainly Ian MacNaught would have been happy to do so as well.

The reduction in maximum speed is obviously another reason why they extended crossings to 7 days apart from fuel costs as she has less in reserve to make up for delays on a 6 day and being even a few hours behind schedule obviously leads to major problems with such short turnarounds in port these days.

Going back to the original Mauretania's attempt to regain the Blue Riband in 1929 she did the last 106 miles to Cherbourg at an average of 29.7 kts to demonstrate what could have been - then used to do 32 knots in the Gulf Stream on Caribbean cruises.

Gary.
29.7 knots is an outstanding speed for a vessel of any era, let alone a ship of Mauretania’s age. You have to wonder how differently things might have been had the weather been more in Mauretania’s favour; it may have even extended her service life if she regained her greatest selling point, and would have certainly embarrassed the German liners Bremen and Europa!
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Offline Barumfox

Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #23 on: Apr 05, 2018, 05:55 PM »
Possibly but it was the Great Depression that sent her cruising not the Bremen!

Trying to get back on thread I believe the QM2's 2004 crossing speed would put her 9th on the all time list behind United States, France*, QM, Normandie, QE, QE2, Rex, Bremen and ahead of Europa, Conte di Savoia and Mauretania.

* Do not have a record figure for France but second highest trial speed after SSUS and service speed of 31 knots - placed second for these reasons alone but may be lower in order  - any information gratefully received.

I am not aware if  Raffaello or Michelangelo - which did over 30 knots on trials - and which had an official service speed of 26.5 knots did any crossings over 27 knots.

Gary Petersen 

Online Oceanic

Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #24 on: Apr 05, 2018, 10:27 PM »
Possibly but it was the Great Depression that sent her cruising not the Bremen!

Trying to get back on thread I believe the QM2's 2004 crossing speed would put her 9th on the all time list behind United States, France*, QM, Normandie, QE, QE2, Rex, Bremen and ahead of Europa, Conte di Savoia and Mauretania.

* Do not have a record figure for France but second highest trial speed after SSUS and service speed of 31 knots - placed second for these reasons alone but may be lower in order  - any information gratefully received.

I am not aware if  Raffaello or Michelangelo - which did over 30 knots on trials - and which had an official service speed of 26.5 knots did any crossings over 27 knots.

Gary Petersen
Thank you for taking the time to compile these statistics; it helps enormously in getting and pinpointing QM2's true speed.

It's impressive she is as fast as she is, considering the 65,542 GRT difference between QM2 and the formerly largest liner record holder Queen Elizabeth; and the former's power disadvantage when compared to older liners also works against her when the subject of speed comes up.
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Offline Barumfox

Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #25 on: Apr 05, 2018, 10:58 PM »
Yes QM2 does have a power deficit against the original Queens and is much larger GRT wise but her actual displacement (weight) is fairly similar to the QM & QE at around 80,000 tons. QE2 is just under 50,000 displacement i believe.

There is also the issue of air and water resistance to take account of - not sure which Queen would have an advantage on these - although QE2 and QE appear the most streamlined above the waterline. The shape of Normandie's Yourkevitch hull was supposed to be superior to the QM's - but I am not aware which, if any, post-war liners adopted it.

Gary

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #26 on: Apr 05, 2018, 11:08 PM »
The shape of Normandie's Yourkevitch hull was supposed to be superior to the QM's - but I am not aware which, if any, post-war liners adopted it.

Gary

Did SS France (1961) have a similar hull form to Normandie? Certainly bears a resemblance when looking beyond the similar paint scheme. I've always liked the "bow tie" type anchors on a side note!
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

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Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #27 on: Apr 06, 2018, 12:25 AM »
Yes QM2 does have a power deficit against the original Queens and is much larger GRT wise but her actual displacement (weight) is fairly similar to the QM & QE at around 80,000 tons. QE2 is just under 50,000 displacement i believe.

There is also the issue of air and water resistance to take account of - not sure which Queen would have an advantage on these - although QE2 and QE appear the most streamlined above the waterline. The shape of Normandie's Yourkevitch hull was supposed to be superior to the QM's - but I am not aware which, if any, post-war liners adopted it.

Gary
If we are measuring which of the Queen's hulls were the most efficient QM2 wins by a landslide due to her large bulb and sharply raked bow, both of which were built up over years of strenuous water-tank testing. QE2 would be a solid second, her hull and early bulb were revolutionary at the time and did an incredible job of parting the waves and bringing fuel costs down compared to other vessels of a similar age.

Yourkevitch's hull was a vast improvement over the likes of the Queen Mary's, enabling Normandie to compete with the QM's superior power and obtain similar speeds. However, the Second World War brought a temporary halt to the building of Atlantic Liners and when new superliners like the France and QE2 were finally constructed once more, newer hull technologies had rendered Yourkevitch's obsolete. It is worth noting, however, that QM2's raked bow is derived partly from Normandie, with the addition of the aforementioned bulb.
 
QM2 could make far better use of her brilliant hull if she was only given the power which graced the liners of past generations. If the original Queen Mary was able to obtain 31 Knots thanks to her 160,000 shp even with her terribly inefficient bow it makes you wonder what QM2 could hypothetically achieve with similar power figures.
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Offline Barumfox

Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #28 on: Apr 06, 2018, 01:47 AM »
Comparative power figures quoted for liners do vary with the source:

I believe the maximum QM & QE generated was actually about 212,000 and I have seen a figure of 195,000 for Normandie.

I believe the official figure for QM2 on entering service was 157,000 but Lloyds Register has a figure of over 172,000 according to one book I have.

QE2 was 110,000 as steamship and 130,000 after conversion to diesel.

How advanced was United States hull compared to Normandie's - or France's? Obviously her power - 240,000 + and aluminium construction were major factors of her speed.

I believe Bremen was first major liner with bulbous bow so Mauretania was really up against it!

Online Oceanic

Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #29 on: Apr 06, 2018, 02:24 AM »
Comparative power figures quoted for liners do vary with the source:

I believe the maximum QM & QE generated was actually about 212,000 and I have seen a figure of 195,000 for Normandie.

I believe the official figure for QM2 on entering service was 157,000 but Lloyds Register has a figure of over 172,000 according to one book I have.

QE2 was 110,000 as steamship and 130,000 after conversion to diesel.

How advanced was United States hull compared to Normandie's - or France's? Obviously her power - 240,000 + and aluminium construction were major factors of her speed.

I believe Bremen was first major liner with bulbous bow so Mauretania was really up against it!
To my knowledge the United States did not feature a particularly advanced hull design, instead, she toted a long used 'knife-edge' bow that narrowed sharply to the tip; it was actually far less advanced than the likes of the Normandie, evidenced by the enormous bow wave she created when venturing past 27 Knots or so. As a result, the United States relied more on her formidable power to weight ratio to claim the Blue Ribband, not superior hull design.

As previously discussed in the thread, QM2 performed a 28 Knot crossing when she was finally allowed without issue, despite her relatively conservative power figures for a ship of her size. That just goes to show how brilliant and efficient her hull is; if you give her fairly meagre power to the original Queen Mary or even the SS United States they would struggle in comparison to achieve what she can on the Atlantic.
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Offline Clydebuilt1971

Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #30 on: Apr 09, 2018, 11:28 AM »
I was on QM2 during a return TA in June 2009 - we went straight into the teeth of a storm one day out of NY.

When we eventually came out the other side she was flat out for two days - the skipper said approx 29.5knts in his midday announcements. I had no way of checking that obviously.

I have video from the port side aft "bump out" - regardless of what "flat out" was it was certainly a great feeling to be on something that size going at a high speed!

Gav

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #31 on: Apr 09, 2018, 04:14 PM »
I have video from the port side aft "bump out" - regardless of what "flat out" was it was certainly a great feeling to be on something that size going at a high speed!

Gav

That's the modern day equivalent of a docking bridge in purpose/usage (an officer will stand on the relevant one with a walkie talkie in hand if needed). My Dad videoed me standing on the same port side one (with me trying to stay upright in the wind) with QE2 in the background during the final tandem transatlantic in October 2008 (About 1 minute, 9 seconds in). As Barumfox has said we were doing an average speed of 25 knots at the time for a (then) standard 6 night crossing...those were the days!


First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #32 on: Apr 09, 2018, 04:27 PM »
My Dad's video above reminds me how much QM2 yaws in a swell despite her rather substantial skeg (rudder like extension from her keel, near her pods). QE2 didn't yaw quite as much from memory and videos I've seen over the years - likely explained by her more knife like hull form/shape whereas QM2's hull is quite wide and flat midships and in her aft section (like modern cruise ships and landing craft  ;) ).
« Last Edit: Apr 09, 2018, 04:47 PM by Thomas Hypher »
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

Offline Twynkle

Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #33 on: Apr 09, 2018, 05:29 PM »
I was on QM2 during a return TA in June 2009 - we went straight into the teeth of a storm one day out of NY.

When we eventually came out the other side she was flat out for two days - the skipper said approx 29.5knts in his midday announcements. I had no way of checking that obviously....
Gav

Hi Gav - hate to say this, as you might groan...
Next time, there is "a way of checking", usually on sea days between  09.00 hrs and 16.00hrs, watching from the Bit Behind the Bridge! Speed and course as well a few more screens are visible as long as conditions allow - you mightn't have discovered it then - and possibly have since!
All the best
Rosie
 

QE2 had been waiting alongside in Dubai for nearly 12 years.  Please restore her Lifeboats and Tenders to where they truly belong - she looks naked without them - please spare her this ignominy.

Offline Barumfox

Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #34 on: Apr 10, 2018, 12:43 AM »
Thomas - great video - I may have been filming the other way at the same time. Don't forget although the average was 25.5 kts we were doing 29Kts on at least one occasion - best days run was 601 miles - just over 26kts  - the weather was also not as good as in 2004 - higher winds.

With regard to Gav's comments I can believe that she could maintain 29.5kts in the right conditions - evidence of this would have been in the daily runs announced at noon and posted by the chart - as well as from the Navigation Information Channel as well as from the Bridge viewing gallery. Her best days run would probably have been when making up time after weather / other delays - I wonder if Michael Gallagher or someone else at Cunard could confirm the best days run she has done  - ideally all daily runs / voyage details would be made available on line somewhere as a historical record.

Gary

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #35 on: Apr 10, 2018, 02:19 AM »
Thomas - great video - I may have been filming the other way at the same time. Don't forget although the average was 25.5 kts we were doing 29Kts on at least one occasion - best days run was 601 miles - just over 26kts  - the weather was also not as good as in 2004 - higher winds.

Small world!  :)
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

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Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #36 on: Aug 28, 2019, 04:29 PM »
Hello everyone, long time no see! :)

As you may have seen recently Chris Frame has released a wonderful interview with QM2 designer Steven Payne (the link for which can be found in Chris’ own post in the QM2 board) and during the course of the video one comment from Payne struck me as being relevant to this topic; when asked about how fast QM2 could do the Atlantic crossing “if pushed” he confirmed that the ship could do the “28.5 knot crossing, QE2’s schedule easily... with a decent margin.”

Although this isn’t a groundbreaking revelation, as it makes sense for her to have been designed to be capable of the 5 night crossing if desired, it’s good to hear further confirmation from the main architectect himself about QM2’s true, incredible, potential...

Now we just need Cunard to let her off the leash once in a while!

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Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #37 on: Aug 29, 2019, 06:19 PM »

Although this isn’t a groundbreaking revelation, as it makes sense for her to have been designed to be capable of the 5 night crossing if desired, it’s good to hear further confirmation from the main architectect himself about QM2’s true, incredible, potential...

Now we just need Cunard to let her off the leash once in a while!

I think he's not entirely unbiased in the matter, though!  QE2 had stopped doing the 5 night crossing many years before QM2 was being designed - and Cunard had already realised that slower = more profit... its a shame she's not allowed to do the 6 night crossing that she was designed for though!  The key thing about QE2 was that at 28.5 knots, she either had 1 or 2 diesel units completely offline, giving her that crucial redundancy factor at that speed. 

How much more fuel would QM2 burn on a 5-night vs 7-night crossing … environmental concerns would come into it now too, of course.
Passionate about QE2's service life for 37 years and creator of this website.  Worked in IT for 27 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Online Oceanic

Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
« Reply #38 on: Sep 04, 2019, 04:14 PM »
I think he's not entirely unbiased in the matter, though!  QE2 had stopped doing the 5 night crossing many years before QM2 was being designed - and Cunard had already realised that slower = more profit... its a shame she's not allowed to do the 6 night crossing that she was designed for though!  The key thing about QE2 was that at 28.5 knots, she either had 1 or 2 diesel units completely offline, giving her that crucial redundancy factor at that speed. 

How much more fuel would QM2 burn on a 5-night vs 7-night crossing … environmental concerns would come into it now too, of course.
All true Rob, I have no doubt that it was never envisioned to have QM2 do the 5 night crossing, having to use all the diesels and turbines at once, all the time, wouldn't be feasible from a cost perspective  it's just merely interesting to hear that it is indeed possible. QM2 really should be allowed to do the six night transatlantic more often, she is a greyhound not a loping mule, but profits come first.

As for how much fuel she'd burn on a 5 night crossing, whilst I don't have any concrete data, it is known that the ship was designed with special attention given to her fuel consumption at varying speeds; for her size she's just about as fuel efficient as they come. The main issue with QM2 is the price of the fuel for those gas turbines, which far eclipses the cost of diesel.
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