Author Topic: Does QE2 have sheer?  (Read 2774 times)

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Online Thomas Hypher

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Does QE2 have sheer?
« on: Oct 20, 2017, 04:04 AM »
QE2 definitely was built with sheer, very apparent particularly on Three Deck and certain photo angles! But yes with her current level of trim walking to her bow will be more "uphill" than usual.
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

Online Pete Hamill

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #1 on: Oct 20, 2017, 09:53 AM »
Gav,

No massacre, and whilst you can see a lot more of her, she needs her lifeboats to be complete. You can see too much - a lady needs to keep an air of mystery  ;)

Offline Clydebuilt1971

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #2 on: Oct 20, 2017, 10:51 AM »
QE2 definitely was built with sheer, very apparent particularly on Three Deck and certain photo angles! But yes with her current level of trim walking to her bow will be more "uphill" than usual.

I will bow to your superior knowledge there Thomas - as I was never on board. It must be subtle though as there is no suggestion of any sheer unlike the two previous Queens.

Gav

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #3 on: Oct 20, 2017, 03:49 PM »
I will bow to your superior knowledge there Thomas - as I was never on board. It must be subtle though as there is no suggestion of any sheer unlike the two previous Queens.

Gav

It is quite apparent at certain angles such as this bow quarter view photo taken by my Dad. Look at the lines of portholes up to One Deck at the bow and the stern, although from Quarter Deck upwards it is not as significant or is non-existent due to Quarter Deck being the first fully Aluminium Deck. However her federal/charcoal grey hull has an exaggerated sheer too.

My Dad's photos of QE2's 25th June 2005 departure from Southampton by Thomas Hypher, on Flickr


One gets some idea of the sheer in this photo of Three Deck particularly if you zoom in on the photo (up to One Deck, one noticeably walked uphill at each end of the ship and each handmade cabin reflected this, on at least one occasion me and my parents were in a forward cabin and the floor was not level at all!):

QE2 - Interior by sharon.ramsbottom, on Flickr


https://www.flickr.com/photos/31803347@N08/3028312900/


Thomas

PS. My Dad did put something in our cabin's porthole on one of our earlier trips and took a photo of that part of her from what I can remember but I cannot find the photo for the life of me haha! It showed how far forward our cabin on that trip was for a passenger cabin.


QE2 is definitely a hybrid in this sense, also in that she was welded and built in box sections but on a slipway. Makes her even more unique!
« Last Edit: Oct 20, 2017, 04:00 PM by ThomasPixel »
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

Offline Twynkle

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #4 on: Oct 20, 2017, 06:27 PM »
It seemed that the finest sheer of passenger ships built during the same period QE2 could be seen on the outside deck of, and experienced on board the sister ships Vistafjord and Sagafjord.
QE2 did have sheer, however not only was it more difficult to experience because of the configuration of her decks and lifeboats, her hull was proportionately longer, the gradient was seemingly less pronounced.
Where QE2 scored was across her beam - being able to watch her rocking from side to side across the Caronia Dining Room, this was impressive!
« Last Edit: Oct 20, 2017, 06:30 PM by Twynkle »
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Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #5 on: Oct 20, 2017, 06:54 PM »
This is one that I'd like to ask Stephen Payne about.

QE2's passenger seemed completely flat for most of their length, it seemed like it was only at the ends that they rose up.  Is that correct?  Is it how the original Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary were also?

I have an unpublished video of me walking round 3-deck, a complete lap, must try to find it.  Its one of the reasons I filmed it.
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Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #6 on: Oct 20, 2017, 11:18 PM »
This is one that I'd like to ask Stephen Payne about.

QE2's passenger seemed completely flat for most of their length, it seemed like it was only at the ends that they rose up.  Is that correct?  Is it how the original Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary were also?

I have an unpublished video of me walking round 3-deck, a complete lap, must try to find it.  Its one of the reasons I filmed it.

From the photos and my memory, QE2's sheer is continuous but becomes much more pronounced at the bow and stern. The original QE and QM's respective sheers appear to be the same too but a bit more pronounced than QE2's.

It seemed that the finest sheer of passenger ships built during the same period QE2 could be seen on the outside deck of, and experienced on board the sister ships Vistafjord and Sagafjord.
QE2 did have sheer, however not only was it more difficult to experience because of the configuration of her decks and lifeboats, her hull was proportionately longer, the gradient was seemingly less pronounced.
Where QE2 scored was across her beam - being able to watch her rocking from side to side across the Caronia Dining Room, this was impressive!

From the photos and my memory, QE2 has no sheer above One Deck as her structure becomes aluminium above but yes the gradient is less pronounced because of her longer hull.
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #7 on: Oct 20, 2017, 11:29 PM »
But her portholes are completely horizontal...
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Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #8 on: Oct 20, 2017, 11:56 PM »
But her portholes are completely horizontal...

If you zoom in on the Three Deck photo she appears to gently curve from amidships to either end, with the sheer becoming more pronounced at either end. The portholes may be at slightly different heights in each cabin, not sure.
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

Online Peter Mugridge

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #9 on: Oct 21, 2017, 12:07 AM »
We need a side on picture of her in grey livery in order to really examine the porthole angles... and as it happens, one exists on this forum - the last picture in the post below is just about perfect for this purpose.  I'd say there is a sheer, but only at the extremities.

Rob - I see you posted the original post that I am quoting




QE2 - 90-20a by Captain Martini, on Flickr


QE2 - 90-08ab by Captain Martini, on Flickr


QE2 - 90-07a by Captain Martini, on Flickr


QE2 - 93-06b by Captain Martini, on Flickr


QE2 - 93-04 by Captain Martini, on Flickr


QE2 - 90-05a06a by Captain Martini, on Flickr

« Last Edit: Oct 25, 2017, 06:16 PM by Lynda Bradford »
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Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #10 on: Oct 21, 2017, 12:32 AM »
It's tricky to be sure whether it is continuous or only at either end, the Three Deck passageway photo I posted earlier suggests it's continuous but becomes more pronounced at either end (if viewed when zoomed in) whereas the grey hull photos suggest otherwise - only at the extremities. However, the portholes may not follow the shape of their corresponding deck all the time (such as only when the sheer becomes noticeable at either end). I suppose we'll need to wait until she opens in Dubai to find out the extent of her sheer once and for all (digital measurements and all that jazz)! If I visit her I would investigate this further. Also, if someone has access to all cabins on a particular deck up to One Deck - to measure the heights of the deck to the bottom of each porthole along her length, to establish what links there are with her sheer. One thing that is not debatable is that she has sheer!

Thomas
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #11 on: Oct 21, 2017, 12:24 PM »
I need to have a read of the various books I have (in the loft) about her building, and also have a look at her blueprint drawings to understand more!

I've been expressing myself badly, I'm not doubting she has sheer or that the rises at the ends, but I think they are completely flat for the main part, - my question is - is this the same as the earlier Queens?  Queen Mary, when I was on her, felt much more banana-ish!
Passionate about QE2's service life for 37 years and creator of this website.  Worked in IT for 27 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Online Pete Hamill

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #12 on: Oct 21, 2017, 12:47 PM »
Here's a photo I took (A deck I think) when I was on Queen Mary Last year.
The sheer is extremely noticeable - I was down on the floor to take this picture in order to get the far end in!
QE2 never had this extreme curvature. Compare with the photo taken on One Deck.
Not quite comparing like for like since this was taken at the shop half way along, but I was standing up and the other end is fully in view.

Thomas's photo down on Three Deck shows more, so perhaps the sheer is more in evidence further down - as you would probably expect.
QE2's hull is painted to give the appearance of sheer, but I don't think her structure follows the paint lines.

Online Bob C.

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #13 on: Oct 21, 2017, 01:49 PM »
QE2 was built with a flat sheer - a flat center section with inclined bow section (not sure if the stern has sheer but if so it would be less than the bow).  QM and QE were built with faired sheer lines or a continuous line of curvature from bow to stern.  The purpose of sheer is to provide additional buoyancy to the bow and stern areas to reduce pitching motion but with the advent of the bulbous bow, sheer was designed out as it significantly reduced construction costs. QE2 was right on the cusp of that advent and I can only assume that there was a desire to stay with classic lines and so her designers incorporated the flat sheer. Or the design incorporated a combined bulbous bow and sheer to achieve the desired sea-keeping/stability objectives.

On an interesting note, I remember attending a QE2 lecture in 1979 (don't ask me why I remember this that far back) and the lecturer was commenting on the QE2's sheer and how the faired sheer look is achieved with the paint and not the structure.  If she was painted to the lines of the flat sheer there would be a noticeable angle in the hull section below the mast and forward.
« Last Edit: Oct 21, 2017, 04:11 PM by Bob C. »

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #14 on: Oct 21, 2017, 06:49 PM »
This has been a fascinating discussion all, thanks to Thomas for kicking it off!

Bob your reply helps clarify my thoughts - and I have just had an email from Stephen Payne which I hope to post here shortly which basically tallies with your description of her.


Rob - I see you posted the original post that I am quoting; the first few pictures seem to have vanished though?

The photo-links still work and you can view them if you click on them, but he's changed the sharing settings so they don't show here.
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Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #15 on: Oct 21, 2017, 07:40 PM »
QE2 was built with a flat sheer - a flat center section with inclined bow section (not sure if the stern has sheer but if so it would be less than the bow).  QM and QE were built with faired sheer lines or a continuous line of curvature from bow to stern.  The purpose of sheer is to provide additional buoyancy to the bow and stern areas to reduce pitching motion but with the advent of the bulbous bow, sheer was designed out as it significantly reduced construction costs. QE2 was right on the cusp of that advent and I can only assume that there was a desire to stay with classic lines and so her designers incorporated the flat sheer. Or the design incorporated a combined bulbous bow and sheer to achieve the desired sea-keeping/stability objectives.

On an interesting note, I remember attending a QE2 lecture in 1979 (don't ask me why I remember this that far back) and the lecturer was commenting on the QE2's sheer and how the faired sheer look is achieved with the paint and not the structure.  If she was painted to the lines of the flat sheer there would be a noticeable angle in the hull section below the mast and forward.

That's good to know Bob! I will commit that to my QE2 memory banks.
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

Offline Twynkle

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #16 on: Oct 21, 2017, 09:11 PM »
This has been a fascinating discussion all, thanks to Thomas for kicking it off!

Bob your reply helps clarify my thoughts - and I have just had an email from Stephen Payne which I hope to post here shortly which basically tallies with your description of her.


The photo-links still work and you can view them if you click on them, but he's changed the sharing settings so they don't show here.

Excellent - thank you!
Whilst we are on sheer, do you think Stephen Payne might also talk about sheer in relation to his design of QM2?
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Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #17 on: Oct 21, 2017, 09:19 PM »
This is my email to Stephen earlier :-

Quote from: Rob Lightbody asks Stephen Payne
We've been having a discussion about Sheer on the forum and I wanted to ask you a question about it, please.  Obviously, QM2 has none, but what did QE2 have?  Her passenger decks were flat for the majority of their length, weren't they?  Flatter than the original Queen Mary's for example?   Is it still called sheer if the deck is flat and only rises at the ends?   

and his reply :-

Quote from: Reply from Stephen Payne
Rob,

I believe that you are correct. QE2’s decks were flat for most of the length, sheer only being introduced forward of the mast. Aft it was much more limited and local. It’s still called sheer though! QM2 has sheer only on the forecastle deck as shown here (attached) for clearing water from the deck in conjunction with camber -where the decks slope across the width with the high point on the centre-line. Yesteryear these plates would be rolled to produce a parabolic curve, but for cost savings it’s now normal to have it with a flat slope for both the camber and sheer.

Stephen
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Online Lynda Bradford

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #18 on: Oct 23, 2017, 01:51 PM »
Interesting topic. 

Thank-you Bob C for the explanation and to Stephen Payne for answering Rob's question about the sheer. 
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Offline Bob van Leeuwen

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #19 on: Oct 23, 2017, 06:15 PM »
This is my email to Stephen earlier :-

and his reply :-


Rob, do you mind sending a followup question that I just thought off?
If the QM2 didn't have the breakwater, would the sheer still been made in the forecastle deck for cosmetic reasons?

Offline Lachlan

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #20 on: Oct 28, 2017, 03:13 AM »
I agree with Bob C. QE2 would have been built with a flat centre section and an angle up to the bow commencing about under the centre of the CUNARD logo adjacent to the bridge wings. There was a slighter angle up to the stern. This way the angles of deck to bulkheads would have been different between but consistent within each of the forward, centre and after sections.

I am sure that this "three section" approach to incorporating sheer was adopted in the construction of the original Oriana completed in 1960. It was probably in other vessels too but I don't know about that.

I have a photo of QE2 which shows the change of angle from horizontal to rising toward the bow very clearly - it's not on this computer but I'll find it and put it up.

Have you ever thought about how they went about building a ship on an angled slipway with a continuously changing sheer line fore and aft as well as camber (ie., curve of deck from side to side)?  Every bulkhead would have met the decks at a different angle both lengthways and crosswise. No wonder they designed that complication out by having a three section approach with no camber to the decks.

Maybe other factors came into play such as welding and high-tensile steel too. Modular construction would have been nearly impossible without removing continuous sheer and camber from ship design.

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #21 on: Oct 28, 2017, 10:18 AM »
I was thinking of how they built on a slope too, it must have made everything harder!  For example a spirit level for flat, would actually need to show whatever the degrees of the slope it was on was.... so they all must have known that??
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Online Michael Gallagher

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #22 on: Oct 28, 2017, 11:18 AM »
One of the key economies in QE2's construction was that the decks were built flat and without the conventional long parabolic lines of sheer that turn the decks up slightly towards the bow and stern as a means of maintaining a constant freeboard height as a ship inevitably pitches fore-and-aft while in motion at sea. As an added safety consideration for her North Atlantic role, the forward decks were, instead, sloped upwards in a straight line from a point just ahead of the main mast to the bow, and those aft, towards the stern, from about where the Quarter Deck lido ended. James Gardner superimposed a beautifully curved sheer line where the contrasting hull and superstructure colours meet on the ship's sides, bringing it up across the Two Deck porthole line and around the curved top of the bow. The lesser slope, aft, was compensated by the tapered glazed windscreening above.

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #23 on: Oct 28, 2017, 11:52 AM »
One of the key economies in QE2's construction was that the decks were built flat and without the conventional long parabolic lines of sheer that turn the decks up slightly towards the bow and stern as a means of maintaining a constant freeboard height as a ship inevitably pitches fore-and-aft while in motion at sea. As an added safety consideration for her North Atlantic role, the forward decks were, instead, sloped upwards in a straight line from a point just ahead of the main mast to the bow, and those aft, towards the stern, from about where the Quarter Deck lido ended. James Gardner superimposed a beautifully curved sheer line where the contrasting hull and superstructure colours meet on the ship's sides, bringing it up across the Two Deck porthole line and around the curved top of the bow. The lesser slope, aft, was compensated by the tapered glazed windscreening above.

Was Gardner's sheer line kept exactly the same throughout her career?  How?  In some refits she was stripped back to metal, so how did they know the exact line to put back!?   I had no idea about this aspect, thanks for sharing!
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Online Michael Gallagher

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #24 on: Oct 28, 2017, 12:10 PM »
I don't know Rob but Gardner's original paint work for the ship (the khaki coloured bulkheads on Boat Deck and under the Bridge and the black painted lifeboat davits) were not maintained over the course of her career.

Offline Lachlan

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #25 on: Oct 30, 2017, 12:45 AM »
The position of the paintlines were probably marked out with weld marks that indicate where the line is to go. If it was it would have been what amounted to a 'dotted line' of weld marks along the ship's side which showed where the paint line was. All you would then have had to do was to join the dots to get a straight and consistent paintline.

I will still find the photo I mentioned above but for what it's worth I took a measurement off a 1/96 scale profile plan I have of QE2 which shows that 2 Deck, for example, where it terminated at the bow was very roughly 2.4 metres higher than at the flat centre section.

Offline Lachlan

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #26 on: Nov 08, 2017, 12:33 AM »
Hi all,

I found the photo - it's a photo of a photo and I don't know its original source so I can't provide a photo credit.

The pic shows clearly what is described in this thread: the portholes and thus decks, run parallel to the waterline then angle up in a straight rising line towards the bow. Sheet, but not continuous sheer

Offline pete cain

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #27 on: Nov 09, 2017, 08:04 PM »
Does QE2 have sheer, course she does    sheer beauty, it was never in doubt ;)

Online Isabelle Prondzynski

Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #28 on: Nov 11, 2017, 12:29 PM »

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #29 on: Nov 11, 2017, 02:34 PM »
The sheer achieved by her paint lines is (to my mind) clearly visible in this recent photo from Dubai :

https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,7479.msg89773.html#msg89773

Her real sheer (not the exaggerated paint line) is also very visible in my opinion.
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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #30 on: Nov 20, 2017, 04:21 PM »
This is my email to Stephen earlier :-

and his reply :-
Found the webcam image of QM2’s sheer!

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #31 on: Nov 20, 2017, 04:41 PM »
Found the webcam image of QM2’s sheer!

Just a note to say some of what we see as sheer is caused by the camera and perspective as QE2's webcam had a wide angle lense (evidenced by the curved horizon line). Basically it is more exaggerated than in person due to the lense distortion. Also, QM2's charcoal grey paint forms an exaggerated sheer line that doesn't match the real sheer line at least at her bow (much like QE2).


My Dad's photos of the 3 Queen's in Southampton on 22 April 2008 by Thomas Hypher, on Flickr

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First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #32 on: Nov 20, 2017, 04:43 PM »
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #33 on: Nov 20, 2017, 10:31 PM »
Also, QM2's charcoal grey paint forms an exaggerated sheer line that doesn't match the real sheer line at least at her bow (much like QE2).

I should rephrase this in that QM2 only has sheer at her bow so the paint line can only attempt to match it (which it doesn't) at her bow  :P . QE2 has the sheer at her bow and stern as mentioned earlier in this topic but her paint line exaggerates even that a bit.

What's also worth noting for both QM2 and QE2 is that their boot topping paint and the white separating paint line follows the exaggerated sheer line of their charcoal grey paint (or QE2's post Falklands pebble grey paint for that matter).
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Does QE2 have sheer?
« Reply #34 on: Nov 21, 2017, 09:45 AM »
2004 photos were a few months after my birth! Crazy!

I was with my parents on the pleasure boat (maybe with some relatives on that occasion - can't remember exactly) and at Calshot later that day as both QE2 and QM2 left Southampton. I was 7 years old at the time! Where's the time gone  ??? ? I didn't have a camera of my own at the time as I'd used disposable film cameras on our first trip the previous August and my Dad was yet to buy his DSLR which he had by our first QE2 cruise in October 2004, when he gave the very good compact camera he used before to me. The camera I used on that October 2004 trip and the last trip in July 2008 for example.

Anyway enough of my wittering and going off topic!

Thomas
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last stepped foot and sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2, in her new life, in Dubai back in January 2020.