Author Topic: QE2 Asbestos and Fireproofing  (Read 28274 times)

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Online Isabelle Prondzynski

Re: Asbestos & Fireproofing
« Reply #20 on: Oct 13, 2011, 03:36 PM »
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/now-i-just-have-to-live-with-the-condition-1.1128897?localLinksEnabled=false

‘Now I just have to live with the condition’
BRIAN DONNELLY and DAVID LEASK case study

Share    13 Oct 2011

TO the world, the ocean-going liner the QE2 is a symbol of the Clyde’s great shipbuilding heyday.

But for John Ferguson, one of the legions of men who worked on her construction, she is a grim reminder of how he acquired the pleural plaques affecting his lungs.

Mr Ferguson, of Clydebank, said: “When I started working on the QE2 in 1965 asbestos was one of the main materials we worked with.
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Offline Rod

Re: Asbestos & Fireproofing
« Reply #21 on: Oct 13, 2011, 06:17 PM »
If we knew then what we know now!

Offline pete cain

Re: Asbestos & Fireproofing
« Reply #22 on: Oct 17, 2011, 08:58 PM »
Just come across this post & feel compelled to contribute, as an apprentice electrician  of Vickers Armstrong in 1966 we used to tie up bundles of cables to a deckhead (these having been run so far but no further because of construction constraints) with asbestos rope, our journeymen would make cat'o'nine tails with said stuff & hit us if we were considered to be a wee bit too cheeky, I remember also serving on submarines, & contractors would come into the shipyard to lag steampipes with chickenwire & (wet)asbestos, it was omnipressent in thse days, Cammel laird & many others would've used this stuff.  Quite a few journeymen whom I knew have died after suffering Asbestosis, (many more in Africa where it is/was mined have suffered the same fate). The Railway industry also felt its effects. Many wives of workers suffered Asbestosis & died purely  for washing their husbands overalls & breathing in the fibres whilst doing so! Thank God I'm still here , inspite of the awfull stuff

Online Lynda Bradford

Re: Asbestos & Fireproofing
« Reply #23 on: Oct 18, 2011, 05:48 PM »
This subject was in the news again last week when the Supreme Court backed the right to claim for compensation from insurance companies.  The House of Lords had ruled five years ago that victims could not claim but the Scottish Government has always backed the right to claim by victims

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15264262
I was proud to be involved with planning QE2's 50 year conference in September 2017 in Clydebank
www.qe2event.com

Offline Twynkle

Re: QE2 Asbestos and Fireproofing
« Reply #24 on: Mar 28, 2012, 10:43 PM »
BBC news.
Today it was agreed that for anyone who has been diagnosed with asbestosis related cancer (mesothelioma), instead of being able to claim compensation from the time of diagnosis - they can now claim from the time they were first exposed to asbestos - i.e. 40 years earlier
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-17535887
QE2 had been waiting alongside in Dubai for nearly 12 years.  Please restore her Lifeboats and Tenders to where they truly belong - she looks naked without them - please spare her this ignominy.

Wegeners

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Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #25 on: Apr 20, 2012, 01:03 AM »
Hi,

Does anyone know anything about a laminated fire retardant wood composite board used for shipbuilding that had asbestos in it that was called MARINITE? I've been told it could be called 'Marinite' but did also have other names too. It's described as like a grey-ish plasterboard type board that was laminated and perhaps used as wall partitioning or to line walls. Does anyone know where this was produced? This board was also used by Cammell Laird shipbuilders, Liverpool but was laminated, etc by a company in Manchester. Is it true that when they banned the use of asbestos that this was substituted with crystalline silica (another carcinogen and highly toxic) in these wood cement boards because it has very simlar qualities?

Asbestos caused several diseases but did you know that they have linked asbestos with autoimmune diseases too? These are often as awful as cancer and can be as fatal and/or disabling and they do often treat it with chemotherapy like with cancer.

I would be grateful for any information you may have on Marinite or if you can point me in the right direction of some.

Thanks.

Wegeners

  • Guest
Re: Asbestos & Fireproofing
« Reply #26 on: Apr 20, 2012, 02:23 AM »
See attached - thought it was interesting!

Is this a document and if so where can we get a copy? thanks.

Online Isabelle Prondzynski

Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #27 on: Apr 20, 2012, 07:11 AM »
Thank you for your interesting question. I wonder what we shall find in relation to QE2?

It may help Forum members to understand your quest if I quote what you wrote to us when registering :

Quote
The site is fascinating. A great piece of social history.
 
This type of wood composite board (wood cement board - Marinite (it had other names too)) was also (we think) the one worked on by my Husband in the mid to late 70's and was for a contract for Cammell Laird the shipbuilders. Those working with it, including my husband were told it was a 'safe' asbestos. Having researched the whole industry and manufacture of these boards and other wood composite boards it's scary to learn that they are now made largely from 'wood' recycled from construction and demolition wastes from the demolition of old buildings, properties, etc. So the potential is that these boards, and others like them possibly containing many toxic/carcinogenic chemicals/substances long since banned will once again find their way back in to chain and therefore putting the public at risk.
 
I'm writing a book and the information will be very useful. 

Some of our members may know more about whether this material was ever used on board QE2.

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #28 on: Apr 20, 2012, 07:21 AM »
It has been mentioned a number of times on the forum and was apparently used extensively.

We had someone doing a thesis on this too ...
Passionate about QE2's service life for 37 years and creator of this website.  Worked in IT for 27 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Online Lynda Bradford

Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #29 on: Apr 20, 2012, 10:05 AM »
Hello welcome to the Forum. As Rob has mentioned there has been quite a lot written about asbestos in various topics.

I have done some work listing all the suppliers for QE2 that had placed adverts in the Cunarders' magazine 1969.  The list is in topic board "A ship of Many Parts" 
https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,2360.0.html

I remembered that Marinite was one of the suppliers so I looked out the magazine so that I could copy the full text of the advert for you.
 
This is the text in the advert for Marinite on page 64 of the Cunarders' 1969 magazine.

"Elizabethan enterprise .....yesterday and today (photo of Elizabethan Galleon)

Over 350 years separate this splendid Elizabethan Galleon from our own superb Queen Elizabeth 2- each a magnificent testimony to a momentous shipbuilding era.  New concepts, new needs, and new materials have now changed the picture beyond recognition.  Important among the indispensable materials of modern ship construction is non-combustable Marinite.  Already used in over 1500 ships, it was a natural choice for the Queen Elizabeth 2 where it makes a major contribution to safety as built in fire protection in the form of bulkheads, linings, ceilings and doors throughout accommodation spaces and public rooms. "

Marinite
Non-combustible sheet  Made in Scotland

Marinite Ltd., Petershill Rd., Springburn, Glasgow, N1

I hope this helps with your research and I hope you keep us informed.

I was proud to be involved with planning QE2's 50 year conference in September 2017 in Clydebank
www.qe2event.com

Wegeners

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Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #30 on: Apr 23, 2012, 02:40 AM »
Thanks for the information. I know that this wood composite board containing asbestos was definitely supplied to Cammell Laird shipbuilders in Liverpool.

Does anyone know of this being linked to illness particularly amongst woodworkers, wood machinists, joiners, carpenters, etc? I would be interested to hear from anyone in the wood trades who has been exposed to these boards and who suffers ill health such as autoimmune diseases or respiratory disease, etc.

Does anyone know exactly what kind of asbestos it contained?

My husband, a wood machinist, worked with this board in the 1970's for a company in Manchester but they were told by management that it contained a 'safe' asbestos, which of course isn't true. Besides cutting it they also laminated it and edged it too. It was used as wall partitioning. They were never given any PPE. Crazy really but when they banned the use of asbestos they substituted it with crystalline silica (they are very similar in qualities), another carcinogen. Besides causing cancers both asbestos and c/silica have been linked to causing certain autoimmune diseases too, also devastating, life threatening and destructive and treated with chemo and the like. We have now both been diagnosed with a rare form of necrotising autoimmune disease and they say we're the only husband and wife couple in the world. Our disease was caused by the exposures to wood dust and silica in the wood dust at work and possibly even the asbestos too. It's crazy as wood dust per se is a classified carcginogen and yet wood machinsts, wood workers, are knowingly allowed to inhale it daily and to bring it home on their clothes, hair and skin to contaminate their homes and expose their loved ones too. They would never allow this if it were asbestos which is also a group 1 carcinogen. Wood dust is reffered to officially as a 'nuisance' dust and a 'safe' level set. How can a proven carcinogen be merely a 'nuisance' dust? I despair. There is no 'safe' level that can be inhaled of any carcinogen so the workplace 'safe' levels of 0.5 are inadequate and fail to protect anyone. I have washed his work clothes for over 30 years. There was a time when they were so full of dust that I had to take them outside to shake of the wood dust/fibres. It would choke me and tasted foul.

Wood composite boards such as MDF/chipboard are made of old waste woods recycled from C&D waste, construction and demolition waste. Old woods from the demolition of old properties and buildings, etc. So hence the real risk that these older building materials such as Marinite, Trunall Asbestos Ships Board, Asbestolux, etc., and also containing woods treated or containing chemicals that were banned years ago because they'd been proven to cause ill health. Therefore if these asbestos boards, which are diificult to tell from any other boards are 'recycled' then asbestos, silica, lead, heavy metals, banned chemicals, pesticides, fungicides, preservatives, etc. will be 'recycled' back in to the chain and emitted as a dust.

 Whilst these boards may be safe in solid form, as a dust they're deadly to those working with them or nearby manufacturing plants. A real ticking time bomb. You only have to look at the internet and see how many residents living near wood waste recycling firms, wood chipping plants and wood composite board manufacturers are all suffering and complaining of the same symptoms from exposure to wood dust from demolition wastes. The dust from the 9/11 atrocities are very similar too and that's why they're experiencing high incidents of cancers and autoimmune diseases since the dust clouds.

If you could see the huge mountains of this wood waste at wood recycling companies (so high the huge earth moving equipment looks like a child's toy sat on top) then you would see the problem is massive. With the new trends for Biomass incinerators springing up all over the UK, this same old recycled wood waste is being used as fuel for Biomass. They use the worst grades for this. When this waste is burned it will emit many of these contaminants back in to air in very fine particules so small you can't see them. As always it's not the dust/particles you can see that do the most damage, it's the ones you can't see that are the most harmful. When inhaled due to their small size often nanoparticle size, then these don't stay in the lungs like the larger size particles, these can pass through vein walls and through the blood brain barrier, so can travel beyond the lungs to affect any part of the body including the brain.

So as you can see the asbestos and Marinite nightmare is not over yet. Instead of it coming to an end there's a chance it's being 'recycled', like that's a good thing.

I'm writing a book about our experiences.

Online Lynda Bradford

Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #31 on: Apr 23, 2012, 10:19 AM »
Quite a thought provoking post that you have written. 

This paper "Asbestos in Scotland" written by Thomas Gorman, Ronnie Johnston, Arthur McIvor, Andrew Watterson outlines the Asbestos hazzard in Scotland. 
https://dspace.stir.ac.uk/bitstream/1893/602/1/Watterson%20-%20Asbestos%20in%20Scotland.pdf

At the bottom of the paper there are acknowledgement to organisations who provided information.  It may be worthwhile contacting them as they may have already researched the information you are looking for.

"The authors thank the oral history respondents, as well as staff at Clydeside Action on Asbestos, Clydebank Asbestos Group, ISD, and COSLA who provided much of the information on which this paper is based".

Have you also contacted the Westminster and Scottish Parliament to see if they have any research material available?
« Last Edit: Jul 18, 2020, 03:32 PM by Lynda Bradford »
I was proud to be involved with planning QE2's 50 year conference in September 2017 in Clydebank
www.qe2event.com

Offline Twynkle

Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #32 on: Apr 23, 2012, 10:45 PM »
Hello!
There is more on asbestos and Marinite (on QE2) here
http://discuss.glasgowguide.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=20028&st=60
and the penultimate para here
http://vads.ac.uk/diad/article.php?title=244&year=1969&article=d.244.40

also - might it be worth you looking at websites / literary searches regarding the surveying of ships, and removal of asbestos / Marinite?
I expect that you have already discovered that there's a considerable amount to be found by just inserting 'Marinite use on ships' into google, too

All the very best - and please do keep us posted regarding your quest - as well as the progress of your book.

And, by the way, did you know that there's a special statue on the Clyde dedicated to the workers who have suffered from ill health due to working with asbestos?
« Last Edit: Apr 23, 2012, 10:54 PM by Twynkle »
QE2 had been waiting alongside in Dubai for nearly 12 years.  Please restore her Lifeboats and Tenders to where they truly belong - she looks naked without them - please spare her this ignominy.

Wegeners

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Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #33 on: Apr 24, 2012, 10:14 PM »
Hi

Thanks to everyone for the info and the links. I will also be contacting those mentioned.

regards, Shirley

Wegeners

  • Guest
Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2012, 10:17 PM »
Hi I did email all those mentioned in the document as suggested :

This paper "Asbestos in Scotland" written by Thomas Gorman, Ronnie Johnston, Arthur McIvor, Andrew Watterson outlines the Asbestos hazzard in Scotland. 
https://dspace.stir.ac.uk/bitstream/1893/602/1/Watterson%20-%20Asbestos%20in%20Scotland.pdf

 but none of them replied. Really disappointed but thanks anyway, much appreciated.

James Roy

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Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #35 on: Feb 06, 2013, 08:15 PM »
I worked from approx 1965 to 1971 for Cape Asbestos, including at its Marinite subsidiary in Springburn, Glasgow.

Marinite was owned in conjunction with Johns-Manville Corporation, of U.S.A.

The main output from Marinite Ltd was asbestos based boards, both for building and for the shipbuilding industry, these boards often being shipped with formica veneers, for cabin walls.

The asbestos used was largely amosite.  Amosite was reckoned to be less dangerous than "blue" asbestos, but health regulations at the plant were strict.  But on occasion the air round the plant was thick with flying fibre.

The marinite product was manufactured either by pressing a slurry mixture in a 2000 t press or latterly, by the Magnani process which was basically a large drum which picked up the asbestos/water/other chemical mix and laid down shallow layers for the product which was dried before use

2.5m sq ft of marinite was shipped to Clydebank for construction of the QE2.  At the time the upper Clyde  shipbuilders were going through a series of financial crises and the shipping of product often depended on the state of the account.

I did use Marinite product in my house, for ceilings in the cellar, but was careful not to saw the boards without a mask.

Anyway, 30+ years later I am still fit.

Eventually Johns-Manville and Cape Asbestos succumbed to the ongoing relevations about the dire effect of asbestos on health, although I don't have the exact date of the Springburn plant closure.

Offline Chris Frame

Re: Marinite asbestos wood composite boards used for shipbuilding
« Reply #36 on: Feb 06, 2013, 11:07 PM »
Asbestos is only dangerous if it us disturbed. Left alone its harmless.

Online Lynda Bradford

Re: QE2 Asbestos and Fireproofing
« Reply #37 on: Feb 27, 2013, 09:48 AM »
The Clydebank Asbestos Group commissioned a memorial to be constructed by Tom McKendrick, in memory of the people affected by asbestos. 

This pdf document gives information about the memorial - The Bender - which will be sited at the top of the fitting out basis in the former John Brown's yard in Clydebank. The document also give some interesting information on the work of the frame benders and information on the effects of asbestos on the workforce and their families. 

http://www.tommckendrick.com/pdf/asbestosmona.pdf
I was proud to be involved with planning QE2's 50 year conference in September 2017 in Clydebank
www.qe2event.com

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: QE2 Asbestos and Fireproofing
« Reply #38 on: Feb 27, 2013, 10:55 AM »
My sister's father in law died of asbestosis (spelling) after working for years in a factory that was handling it... it's nasty if handled incorrectly.

Mostly they just didn't know in those days. By the time of QE2 I believe they knew at least some of the dangers and precautions were taken
Passionate about QE2's service life for 37 years and creator of this website.  Worked in IT for 27 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Online Rob Lightbody

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Marinite non-combustible sheet advert
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2014, 03:08 PM »
Attached advert for the Marinite board used extensively on QE2.

As noted above by James Roy, used correctly it was no risk, and also once on board QE2, if treated carefully (or left alone) its also no risk.

Interesting to note that they have avoided using the word asbestos by the time this advert ran in 1969 in British Marine Progress
Passionate about QE2's service life for 37 years and creator of this website.  Worked in IT for 27 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.