Author Topic: Steel/Aluminium Transition Joint & repairs/patches to the superstructure  (Read 24961 times)

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Offline Twynkle

Re: Steel/Aluminium Transition Joint
« Reply #20 on: Feb 27, 2010, 08:25 AM »
Ken
Many apologies!
They are mine - try these links and let me know if you can re-size them, too
as the double row of rivets are visible in the larger sizes!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4019/4389887989_6aaf94b982_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4036/4389887995_33f8dd6f0f_b.jpg

They are very hazy - QE2, Geiranger and failing camera wasn't easy!!
« Last Edit: Feb 27, 2010, 08:28 AM by Twynkle »
QE2 had been waiting alongside in Dubai for nearly 12 years.  Please restore her Lifeboats and Tenders to where they truly belong - she looks naked without them - please spare her this ignominy.

Offline highlander0108

Re: Steel/Aluminium Transition Joint
« Reply #21 on: Feb 27, 2010, 01:37 PM »
Here's a shot I took from the pier, starboard side, illustrating Holynougat's comments.  You can see the aluminum patch welded over the upper right corner of the window, obviously patching a crack at that stress point.  The aluminum cracked even though the windows have radiused corners to reduce this.  Next to the patch, you can see another crack has developed at the upper left corner of the patch, where it appears that the patch just transferred some of the loading to the plating beyond.  To the lower right of the patch, there is a ghosting of something round, possibly another repair job.  The aluminum/steel rivet joint is right below all of this with some minor rusting, but still looking good in outward appearance.  



The ships aluminum superstructure is full of repairs like this.  I just refer to them as beauty marks, scars of her many rough crossings! ;D
« Last Edit: Feb 27, 2010, 04:23 PM by highlander0108 »
"There will never be another one like her" QE2's last Master Ian McNaught
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Offline Andrew Collier

Re: Steel/Aluminium Transition Joint
« Reply #22 on: Feb 27, 2010, 03:31 PM »
Great photo!

it has always amazed me that despite being a bit of a mess close up, as this photo and many others show, the ship still looked amazing!

I can't think of another ship that would still look awesome if covered in patches like this one was, in some views when the light catches them they really stand out, but still the otherall effect isnt spoilt, what a design.... :-D
The Virtual Staff Captain

Online Isabelle Prondzynski

Re: Steel/Aluminium Transition Joint
« Reply #23 on: Feb 27, 2010, 05:06 PM »

I can't think of another ship that would still look awesome if covered in patches like this one was, in some views when the light catches them they really stand out, but still the otherall effect isnt spoilt, what a design.... :-D

I looked at the exterior of the Rotterdam this afternoon in the spitting rain and found much the same patchwork of patches in the superstructure. Which raises the question whether it too is of aluminium, something we had previously thought was not the case...

And certainly for QE2, I used to regard these patches as heightening her looks, much as the wrinkles on a elderly face often add a lot of interest to that face, all the signs of someone having lived to the full!

Online Peter Mugridge

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Re: Steel/Aluminium Transition Joint
« Reply #24 on: Feb 28, 2010, 12:13 AM »
Isabelle, there is no indication of aluminium in Rotterdam ( 1959 ) from this:

http://www.shipmotions.nl/DUT/PapersReports/1166-PRADS-98.pdf

which incidentally makes brief mention of QE2 on page 8...
"It is a capital mistake to allow any mechanical object to realise that you are in a hurry!"

Offline highlander0108

Re: Steel/Aluminium Transition Joint
« Reply #25 on: Feb 28, 2010, 01:22 PM »
Here's another interesting repair of a repair.  I believe this was taken on the starboard side, Queens Grill or lounge windows.
"There will never be another one like her" QE2's last Master Ian McNaught
My Blog:  http://qe2-prideoftheclyde.blogspot.com/

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Steel/Aluminium Transition Joint
« Reply #26 on: Feb 28, 2010, 05:09 PM »
Have a look at "Reltco" 's photo here - https://www.flickr.com/photos/33120597@N03/3451255013/ - its from 1972 and shows, i think, patches already present in the corner of the windows. 
Passionate about QE2's service life for 37 years and creator of this website.  Worked in IT for 27 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Offline Twynkle

This is a great set, Rob!

If you go to the transition joint on this image (needs to be the original size - very large!!)
then up to the higher rectangular windows...
There's a 'strip' of metal 'stuck on' stretching along beneath them.
Is this a patch, do you think?
If so - it must have been one mighty long 'crack!
Now wondering what could have caused it - and are there other 'strengtheners' like this one?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lightbody/1414248239/sizes/o/in/set-72157602100953447/
QE2 had been waiting alongside in Dubai for nearly 12 years.  Please restore her Lifeboats and Tenders to where they truly belong - she looks naked without them - please spare her this ignominy.

Offline Beardy Rich

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And to think that they make aircraft out of this stuff  :o :o :o
Rich Drayson. Ex Snr Mechanic QE2 1984-1988.

Online Bob C.

And to think that they make aircraft out of this stuff  :o :o :o

Yep, had one of those fatigue cracks in my helicopter in it's keel (which is overhead in a heli).  It was one big scary 4 inch long crack.  Fortunatley it was found before anyone went for the next flight. 

All metal fatigues and cracks but thanks to the inspections cycles on ships and aircraft, catastrophe very, very rarely occurs!
« Last Edit: Feb 28, 2010, 09:22 PM by Bob C. »

Online Rob Lightbody

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Here's a great shot of the aluminium riveted join from inside, in 1968

Passionate about QE2's service life for 37 years and creator of this website.  Worked in IT for 27 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Online Rob Lightbody

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and here's a great diagram (attached) of the join of the steel and aluminium

Passionate about QE2's service life for 37 years and creator of this website.  Worked in IT for 27 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Online Bob C.

Rob,
    Where did you get this diagam?  It shows that QE2's hull has a bit of tumblehome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumblehome) between 6 and 3 Deck?  I did not think she had any but it is evident in this drawing.


Offline Andrew Collier

Hi Bob,

The hull deffinatly had a small tumblehome on decks 4 and 5, as shown in the drawing Rob posted.

It was 6 inches on each side, making the top part of the hull and the superstructure a foot narrower than the maximum beam at the waterline.

http://www.thamesshipsociety.org.uk/images/Images2008/Queen-Elizabeth-2-26-Apr-2008-2.jpg

Many images of the ship, such as this one show the light catching the tumblehome differently to the rest of the ship so 'prove' its existance, and show the extent of it.

Cheers  8)
The Virtual Staff Captain

Online Bob C.

Great photo that dramatically demonstrates QE2's tumble home with reflective lighting.  I had to look at the photo for awhile but I eventually got it.

Online Peter Mugridge

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A strong lesson here about the care needed for the transition joint:

Ten years ago, a fleet of trains was built which have aluminium side panels.  To save money, the factory simply used steel bolts to fix them in place.

Despite the area of connection involved being proportionately much smaller than the transiition joint on QE2 ( or any other ship with one ) and the relatively short timescale to date, there are now severe corrosion problems on these specific trains which are having to be repaired quite extensively.

Two points here:

1) If anyone doubts the need for such a joint, the above is a very graphic proof of the need!

2) The quality of the workmanship on QE2's hull, and the degree of skill involved with it, is amply demonstrated by the lack of any such corrosion after over 40 years in frequently harsh conditions in a salt environment and with a vastly greater area of potential contact to consider. :)
"It is a capital mistake to allow any mechanical object to realise that you are in a hurry!"

Online Bob C.

Does anyone know if steel was used in any of the modifications to QE2's superstructrure?

QE2 was essentially aluminum from Q-Deck on up when put into service but I'm wondering how much if any steel went in to the penthouse suites and funnel and aft deck changes as well as the galley modifications to include the "mystery box" forward.

Impacts on the ship's stability, mostly roll stability, must be taken into consideration for these sorts of modifcations (as well as galvanic ones too) but wondering how much tolerence there is/was for using steel versus aluminium. 
« Last Edit: Oct 06, 2011, 05:18 PM by Bob C. »

Offline Rod

Some random thoughts here.
QE2 was one of the first ships built at JB's to extensively use aluminium or aluminum for our US brothers and sisters. So much so that JB's opened up and aluminum welding school so they would have enough welders.
The biggest problem with the "bi-metallic joint" (proper name) was if saltwater intruded into it. A battery is no good without acid.
There was a rubber composite insulator between the metals and then "araldite" was used to seal the joint. I believe the rivets were stainless steel. Every year during drydock the araldite was cleaned out using very high pressure water, around 17,000 psi and new applied.
Cracking was a constant problem with the aluminium. One cabin I was in for a long time came complete with a roll of "Denso" tape so when the repair cracked again you could go outside and do a DIY repair.

Contrary to popular belief, in rough weather, windows in the Boat, Upper and Quarter deck did not get broken they "popped" out due to the flexing of the aluminium. Had the misfortune to be near one when it did this. Thats when you heard the tannoy..."carpenters to Double down port side etc.

Offline pete cain

Am currently reading  ORIGINS, ORIENT, and ORIANA. Charles F. Morris. ( 1980 ).
   
   Have got to admit that I've skipped quite a few chapters ,(with the intention to return) just to get to Oriana
   & her design & construction, re steel/aluminum mix, & expansion joints or lack of.
    Chapter 11 p261. ''THE ORIENT COMPANY was very fortunate(or , perhaps, should I say very discerning) to
    have chosen the firm of Vickers, at Barrow, to build their ships after the second World War - particularly the
   Oriana- because Vickers were at that time, in my opinion, the most advanced and skilfull builders of
    passenger liners in Britain and, possibly , in the world.  The building of the all-welded hull and aluminium
   superstructure of the ship could have been disasterous in the hands of lesser builders''.

   ''So far as I am aware no other ship at the time had used the alloy as a 'strength' material when added 
     to the steel hull of a ship in the form of a superstructure''.

   ''In the Oriana, the steel construction was 'married' to the alloy in such a way to ensure that the structure
     worked together as one in resisting the forces arising from loading the ship, from rolling and pitching
    and from the seas through which the ship was to sail''.
       To achieve this amalgamation of the two materials, transverse webs were chosen at intervals along the
     ships length and were carried from the keel and double bottom structure through the main steel hull
     and strength deck (the uppermost steel deck) upwards through all the alloy decks which were 'fore-and
     -aft', or longitudinally framed. All the accomodation requirements were subservient  in importance to the
      structure requirements and were adjusted  around the need to preserve structutal integrity''.

     ''The superstructure sides(about 12 feet inside the extreme breadth of the hull) were carried upwards 
        through several decks in order to tie the aluminium superstructure structurally to the strength deck
      (at this point the author directs the reader to an illustration not unlike that of Robs post no 31 above
       not knowing the copyright thinggys I deceided not to add it to this post, the illustration also shows
      Oriana with a marked Tumblehome). The aluminium superstructure and the steel hull were all- welded
      with the exceptions imposed by Lloyds Classification Society-the stringer angle connecting the edge of
      the strength deck to the sheer strake plating (uppermost plates of the hull and an important strength 
      member of the hull), and a treble-riveted seam of the hull plating at the turn of the bilge plating.These
      'crack-arresters' are now regarded by many as being rather 'old hat' and could be dispensed with in
      favour of (perhaps) special alloy steel''. (p262)

      'Each joint had to be a 'strength' connection which had not featured in ships before,--------
     The rivetted  connection which was finally selected and used in the Oriana ( is further illustrated, but
     looks not unlike  the method used on QE2 & has been posted previously ).There appears to be very
   little on which I may comment in this design of joint, but so far as I know, there has been no failure to
   date, and Oriana is now 18 years old at the time of writing' (p265).
   
     The cracking of any structure can be taken as a sign of relieving of high points of stress and often, in
    cases where such cracking has taken place in a relatively unimportant part of the structure, the crack
    can be left------- in my experience, if cracks of this sort are repaired, another crack will appear nearby,
   because the high stress caused by movement of the ship's structure is still there and must be relieved.
   (p267)
               The design of the structure to incorporate the aluminium alloy as a structural asset was checked
    at the time of the ship's launch, since this event causes high straining to take place and gives the
    builders an opportunity to investigate the contribution to the ship's strength made by the superstructure.
   Hitherto, 'expansion joints'had been fitted into the upper works of Orient ships. These joints allow the
   superstructure to move as the main hull of the vessel bends when the ship is at sea, or when she is being
   loaded or discharged, with the result that it is , therefore, not subjected to any major forces created by
   the movement of the hull. In the Oriana the usual 'expansion joint' was ommitted and , for the first time
   in the companies ships, a superstructure was made to work for its living. The builders invited a team of
   specialists from the British Shipbuilding Research Association to install instruments to take readings of
   stress on the ship's hull and superstructure during the launch, and subsequent findings of the
    investigating team were bothh reassuring and satisfactory''.(p268)

     This book is extremely detailed,giving the history behind the Orient line, finishing with their last liner
   Oriana, her design, construction & trials,I wish there was a book giving as much insight to the building of
    QE2. Will now have to search & look/see if Oriana suffered with any cracking in her superstructure.
    Although they were both steel hull, alloy upperworks, is that the only thing they had in common,
    were their designs completely different regarding stresses & subsequent cracking?. I know it can be
  argued that QE2 had a harder life, but she had cracks appearing early in her life did she not?.
       

     
   
« Last Edit: Mar 21, 2012, 04:15 PM by pete cain »

Offline Rod

https://www.theqe2story.com/images/ScottishDailyMail12-1-12_1.pdf

https://www.theqe2story.com/images/ScottishDailyMail12-1-12_2.pdf

Excellent article. Apart from doing a very fair job on the current situation, I was also fascinated by the story about the aluminium superstructure, which I had not read before.

Isabelle, what the article didn,t mention is that John Browns did NOT have more than 2 people capable of welding aluminum!!!!! They had to set up welding school when they got the contract!
« Last Edit: Jan 18, 2013, 09:19 AM by Isabelle Prondzynski »