What is a ship's "nationality"?

[Adam Ilgin]

How can a foreign court rule over a British wreck and it's artefacts ? I thought she sank in international waters?

White Star was owned by IMM, an American company. As Titanic was register in Liverpool, she was de jure a British ship, but de facto American.

[Adam Hodson]

White Star was owned by IMM, an American company. As Titanic was register in Liverpool, she was de jure a British ship, but de facto American.

Thanks for that info Adam.

[Twynkle]

White Star was owned by IMM, an American company. As Titanic was register in Liverpool, she was de jure a British ship, but de facto American.

Thanks for that info Adam.

The White Star Line was a British owned Company!
Founded in Liverpool in 1845, Long before Titanic was even thought of!
"The first company bearing the name White Star Line was founded in Liverpool, England, by John Pilkington and Henry Wilson in 1845...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Star_Line
You will find thousands of references to the Line throughout very many maritime history books!

[Peter Mugridge]

Yes, White Star was owned by IMM by the time of the Titanic disaster - however corporate ownership and business registration of the same company can be in two different countries.  I believe the corporate registry is the deciding factor as to the nationality of a company, not the registry of the ultimate owning company.

That creates a bit of a grey area, I agree, but I believe Twynkle is right.

[Graham Taylor]

Yes Rosie and Peter are correct. White Star Line was a British company owned outright by the Ismay family until negotiations were undertaken to join the conglomerate, International Mercantile Maritime Co. run by JP Morgan an American (who was prevented by an agreement with the British government and subsequent law from owning White Star Line directly, so chose to do so through IMM the holding company).

IMM and it's constituent shipping lines were not profitable, in part because JP Morgan overestimated each shipping lines's worth and paid too much per share. IMM itself went bankrupt three years after the sinking of the Titanic although the company managed to forge on after restructuring. After the US government finally agreed to offer subsidies to US owned, built and flagged vessels IMM was forced to sell off its foreign flagged holdings. White Star Line was sold to the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company in 1927 for less than had been paid for it 25 years earlier. RMSPC itself went bankrupt five years later and was restructured as the Royal Mail Lines Ltd. In 1934 the British government, in return for a subsidy, required Cunard and White Star to merge their operations on the North Atlantic. IMM now as a wholly American company with US flagged vessels on its register later evolved into the United States Lines.

There are some similarities today with the airline alliances, but a closer correlation would be with Rupert Murdoch, an Australian, who until the recent demerger of News Corp, an Australian/American holding company, owned various newspaper titles such as The Times (of London) plus the Fox Network. Does this make The Times an Australian paper or Fox News Australian? NO

[Twynkle]

Hi Graham - and Peter, too.
Thank you for a thoroughly good read!
(Just to poke hard at the topic boundaries, we could ask, ' When QE2 was in Service with Cunard / Carnival (Cunard is a British registered, Carnival owned company) was she still a British (Scottish-English) ship? 
Rosie

[Adam Ilgin]

Ahhh. Ok. Thank you Rosie, Peter and Graham. What I had meant was that a US court did have some jurisdiction over Titanic as her operator was part of an American holding company. So if, God forbid, the QM2 sank in international waters, since Cunard is part of Carnival, a US court could claim jurisdiction.

[Twynkle]

Ahhh. Ok. Thank you Rosie, Peter and Graham. What I had meant was that a US court did have some jurisdiction over Titanic as her operator was part of an American holding company. So if, God forbid, the QM2 sank in international waters, since Cunard is part of Carnival, a US court could claim jurisdiction.

Way Off Topic
You can be very sure that if any Carnival owned ship was to come to grief, no matter where,  the lawyers employed and instructed  by the owner would be highly active, as would those of others seeking to make claims. Carnival (US) are already paying a significant price for the loss of Costa Concordia - she sank in Italian waters.

Back to Titanic.
Because of the tragedy of both her sinking as well as that of other ships too, there have been significant changes made regarding insurance, international maritime law, standards of safety at sea etc etc - and the Cunard Engineers still wear purple on their epaulettes and sleeves in memory of the courage shown by those who lost their lives in the engine rooms and other areas in the hull of the ship.

[Adam Ilgin]

I stand corrected.

[Peter Mugridge]

Hi Graham - and Peter, too.
Thank you for a thoroughly good read!
(Just to poke hard at the topic boundaries, we could ask, ' When QE2 was in Service with Cunard / Carnival (Cunard is a British registered, Carnival owned company) was she still a British (Scottish-English) ship? 
Rosie

I'd say so, given what was under her name on the stern!

[Stowaway2k]

Ah, so QE2 is now a Vanuatan ship.   

[Twynkle]

I'd say so, given what was under her name on the stern!

Ah, so QE2 is now a Vanuatan ship.   

Ha ha!!
(Thinking there might be a case for a new topic here...
Before she goes travelling again, won't she need a passport?! R.)

[Graham Taylor]

Ah, so QE2 is now a Vanuatan ship.   

No more so than QM2 et Vistas are Bermudian.

There may be some confusion arising between the registration of a Company and registration of a vessel on the shipping register. White Star Line was registered as a British Company at Companies House for England and Wales. Whereas Cunard after the Carnival acquisition was and is not, being no more than a brand of Carnival UK (incorporated in the UK) whose parent company Carnival Corporation & PLC is registered in both the US and UK after the merger between Carnival and P&O - making it a British- American company.

[Graham Taylor]

Ahhh. Ok. Thank you Rosie, Peter and Graham. What I had meant was that a US court did have some jurisdiction over Titanic as her operator was part of an American holding company. So if, God forbid, the QM2 sank in international waters, since Cunard is part of Carnival, a US court could claim jurisdiction.

I suspect jurisdiction would encompass both the US and the UK. US passengers/relatives seeking compensation in the US and EU citizens through the UK courts. Then there would be the Inquiry into the disaster (as with Titanic)' with separate Inquiries, probably with one held in the UK on behalf of the Bermudian authorities or in addition to.

[Adam Ilgin]

All I meant was that because of the ownership of the White Star Line a US court could claim jurisdiction over the Titanic. I did not mean to say that because of White Star's ownership Titanic was an American ship. What I meant was that she could be considered American because of her operator's ownership.