QE2 and her lack of expansion joints compared to other similar liners.

[Isabelle Prondzynski]

SS Rotterdam is one of the rare ships, I am told, where the expansion joints in her hull are clearly marked and easy to see :

https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=55206992@N00&q=rotterdam%20expansion

Here is one of these pictures, showing the expansion joint as the black line looking a bit like a thermometer in shape :


Expansion joints by prondis_in_kenya, on Flickr

I wonder whether QE2 had expansion joints, and if so, where were they located?

[Bob C.]

Nice photo Isabelle.  The reason for the thermometer shape is so the artificial "crack" does not expand or "run". 

WARNING: TECHNICAL SPEAK TO FOLLOW: 

In the stress equation, stress is equal to force divided by the area it acts upon.  At the bottom of a crack the area is virtually zero making the stress almost infinite.  So the larger the area, the lower the crack stress - thus the reason for the larger area at the bottom of the "artificial" crack in Isabelle's photo

[Alistair]

I remember reading somewhere, it may have been the book QE2, 40 Years Famous, that she does not have expansion joints. I could be wrong however and will wait to see if anyone can correct / update me! 

[Twynkle]

Ooh, that's good! Yet again the opportunity to learn something new - and all because of QE2!

Firstly, Isabelle -  well spotted! (Regarding the expansion joint that's been identified with the marking)
I wonder, did you notice any others on the Rotterdam's superstructure?

Then Bob C - I remember clearly your explanations about QE2's superstructure, hull and tumblehome - that is what's it's called, isn't it?
Not forgetting the transitional join, either!!
If you and anyone else, has the time, please could you 'talk' about the why, how are they made, what are they there for, and other important things / questions about expansion joints - what exactly  might stress it enough to make it 'crack or run' (can/do they actually break, and how far could the metal split etc? etc).
If Rotterdam's got at least one, then mightn't QE2 have one or two as well?
Thank you
Rosie

[Isabelle Prondzynski]

Firstly, Isabelle -  well spotted! (Regarding the expansion joint that's been identified with the marking)
I wonder, did you notice any others on the Rotterdam's superstructure?

I was lucky -- visiting SS Rotterdam together with very knowledgeable shippy people! Otherwise, I would never have known what that attractive looking thermometer design represented...

Looking at my photos now, it is quite possible that there is only one such joint on each side of the ship. From memory, I would have said more, but if so, they are not visible in the pictures.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/prondis_in_kenya/sets/72157623546400484/

[John Parsons]

The expansion joint discussion calls to mind the "Kaiser" cargo ships supplied to us from the USA during the war. These were an all welded construction and were so rigid that many of them broke in half while crossing the Atlantic in heavy weather.
Apparently, they would ride on top of a large wave, so that the bow and stern were unsupported, and just break in two.
I wonder if they had expansion joints, or if it would have made any difference if they had?  Certainly more flexibility was required.

[cunardqueen]

There are also Expansion joints on the Queen Mary, they were pointed out, but quite where they are l have no idea..

[Rob Lightbody]

There are also Expansion joints on the Queen Mary, they were pointed out, but quite where they are l have no idea..

QE2 was very, very special in her day for NOT having expansion joints.  There's lots of information about this in the various books and we've discussed it previously here - https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,620.0.html

[pete cain]

Issabelle, that photo of Rotterdam, I distinctly remember  a documentary (still on Youtube somewhere, OH my Fading memory!!)' showing that same shape of the thermometer, on  a dive to RMS Brittanic, sister ship to  Titanic re expansion joints . like Rosie (regarding another topic) I'm on a search & will post in due course.
   I also remember somewhere , a mention about tarpaulin & plastic drain pipes , above (Queens grill?? or somewhere) because of ingress of water,  dripping on diners, maybe because of a lack of an expansoin joint?

[pete cain]

Found it,   well worth watching but the info comes in at 1hr 19min :

Note: link to You Tube video not available because of a copyright claim

-- the same thermometer glass  shape,  as mentioned on Rotterdam, as ever thanks to Youtube & those who post.....

 As a postscript, do you think if QE2 had these things , she might not have had so many repairs, realising of course that her superstructure was  a part of the load bearing hull ?. Still searching about the tarpaulin story......................

[Rob Lightbody]

Note: the You Tube video no longer available because of a copyright claim

Found it, well worth watching but the info comes in at 1hr 19min    the same thermometer glass  shape,  as mentioned on Rotterdam, as ever thanks to Youtube & those who post.....

 As a postscript, do you think if QE2 had these things , she might not have had so many repairs, realising of course that her superstructure was  a part of the load bearing hull ?. Still searching about the tarpaulin story......................

Watching it!  It gets particularly interesting and relevant at about 1h15m onwards.

QE2's expansion joints, and the problems it caused by not having them, is of great interest to me.  What did other aluminium superstructured ships have?  why did they feel they had to change this design for QE2?  What were the advantages of not having joints?

I'm sure its safe to say that if they'd known QE2 would last 40 years, they would not have designed her this way.  The fact that the Aluminium was already causing relatively big problems in the mid 80s cannot have been intended - but was it the fault of the lack of joints?

[Twynkle]

QE2 was very, very special in her day for NOT having expansion joints.  There's lots of information about this in the various books and we've discussed it previously here - https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,620.0.html

Thanks for confirming this about QE2 as well as for the cross reference, Rob.
Just realised that you have posted here too!

......QE2's expansion joints, and the problems it caused by not having them, is of great interest to me.  What did other aluminium superstructured ships have?  why did they feel they had to change this design for QE2?  What were the advantages of not having joints?

I'm sure its safe to say that if they'd known QE2 would last 40 years, they would not have designed her this way.  The fact that the Aluminium was already causing relatively big problems in the mid 80s cannot have been intended - but was it the fault of the lack of joints?

I'd love to know the answers too!
Not having access at the moment to the appropriate texts, hope that you won't mind my asking:
Do you / anyone know whether it was the combination of aluminium and steel and the rubber inserted into the transitional join, as well as a strengthened bow, that rendered it unecessary to build in expansion joints?
And if she'd had them, then where would they have been situated?
Rosie


PS No time to read this at the moment - hope it might be of interest...
http://titanic-model.com/articles/markchirnside3/index.shtml
Also  - maybe we could have another 'Ask the...'   A 'Naval Architect' or Technical Expert in maritime metallurgy on 'the Design and Building of QE2!! Wonder whether Mr S Payne might enjoy it?!

  

[Magic Pipe]

The QE2 was unusual in her day in that she had a unitized hull and superstructure.  She was the first ship anywhere close to her size built this way.  Her contemporaries such as the France and Michelangelo were structurally more like the Titanic than a modern ship.  The superstructures of these older ships were segmented with expansion joints, which prevented them (intentionally) from contributing to the ship's hull girder strength.  In constructing a ship in this method, the uppermost continuous deck (strength deck) is reinforced, usually with doubler plates affixed to the shell plating in way of the strength deck and by employing significantly thicker plating for the strength deck.

In unitizing the hull and superstructure, a much deeper hull girder can be constructed, which stiffens the ship's structure and also eliminates the need for the reinforced strength deck.  Had the QE2 not gone this route, significant strengthening would had to have been added in way of One Deck.  The weight saved by eliminating this strengthening allowed a larger superstructure to be constructed, increasing her earning potential.

[pete cain]

Have been looking avidly , regarding expansion joints on QE2, & still looking, however, I've been a long believer that SS Oriana was the forebear to QE2, bear with me, Oriana was the first  with steel hull / Aluminium superstructure, the first with bow thrusters, & just look at these bow shots   re Bulbous bow another Oriana 1st,

http://ribapix.com/index.php?a=subjects&s=item&key=SYToyOntpOjA7aToyNjc7aToxO3M6NToiRG9ja3MiO30=&pg=14
http://rmsqueen.blogspot.com/2009/11/qe2-in-bremerhaven-dry-dock.html

just page down to see , now got to find out if ORIANA & QE2 had expansion joints Arghh!!!

[Isabelle Prondzynski]

Could I ask the ignorant questions I should perhaps have posed at the beginning :

What does an expansion joint do?

What is it made of? Unlike that of a bridge, it does not consist of a gap, I am sure.

Amazing that, as the Britannic video (I think!) shows, the expansion joint can be the point of weakness in the whole ship's structure.

How is QE2 constructed, that she can flex in a storm and not come to grief; how does she expand and contract with changes in temperature?

Thank you all for the fascinating information already here -- I had not expected my simple observation of a black line with a bulbous bottom to concern such a vital part of the ship's architecture!

[Rod]

Isabelle,
Esentially, an expansion joint, is a design feature, found on a lot of things that allows the disimilar expansion of building materials.
Because QE2 was essentially hull up to Q deck, steel and above that aluminium or aluminum for the US readers.
Aluminum expands approximately twice the rate of steel, so where they are attached becomes a problem. At the riveted joint the rivet holes were enlarged to help this problem.
Another problem with havin aluminum superstructure is the "flexing" Steel is much more rigid than Al. The superstructure moves considerably more than the hull. think upside down pendulum... that puts a greater stress on the superstructure. AL is a lot weaker than steen, so at any point where there is great stress you get cracks, leading to water ingress etc. Bigest crack I saw was around 3 feet. These could not be repaired by ships personal but temporarily covered. Quite often thes occured around portholes and openings in the ships side. Another thread on this site  shows pics of the garbage door areas with plates welded close by.
An expansion joint is a gap in the wall that is closed by thick rubber, obviously made waterproof.
As for changes in temp.....think of all the copper pipes carrying water. They had expansion joints in them. On three deck for instance if a copper pipe was cut and allowed to go cold there would be a 1 foot gap at the cut!

[Twynkle]

This is really interesting, thank you both; they are great questions -- and for your answers, too!

Rod - As QE2's been in warm lay-up - what effects (if any) would you expect the local temperatures have had on the copper pipes, and on the patches on the aluminium?
The other question is about the rubber that's used - doesn't it degrade, or perish, even - over time?
If so - would this be due to extreme temps, as well as the atmosphere at sea, or inertia perhaps?
Thanks again
Rosie.

[Rob Lightbody]

From AR | QE2, my favourite QE2 book of all time!

AR|QE2, June 1969, Page 417

The superstructure of a large ship always poses problems: it adds nothing the the stability and usually contributes very little to the hull strength.  Sited high above the neutral line of the hull girder, it is liable to enormous strain as the hull flexes with the passage of the waves beneath it  The steel superstructures of the earlier Queens was not continuous with the hull.  Vertical joints in the upper-works allow them to behave like separate boxes fixed to the strength deck,  This, although it used to be common practice was never entirely satisfactory.  The bottom of a working joint forms a dangerous focus for local stresses, while the superstructure becomes simply a further load for the Hull, which also has to withstand unaided the entire longitudinal bending stresses.  The hull therefore has to be stronger and heavier, especially high up at the strength deck, which on the old QE was formed of two continuous layers of steel plate up to 0.6in. thick, with a total weight in the region of 2,000 tons.
Apart from the steel casing around the uptakes, the QE2 superstructure is built entirely in aluminium alloy, and it is structurally continuous with the steel hull below it, the join being signalled externally by the double line of 1-in. rivets girdling the 750-ft. length of the quarter deck below the sills of the lower line of large windows.
The plate thickness in the upper part of the steel hull are slightly reduced to allow a moderate amount of stress to "get through" and be resisted by the superstructure.  The thickness of the alloy plates in the shell, beams, decks and structural partitions of the superstructure itself are also carefully controlled, and the material is quite highly stresses.  The comparatively large movements under stress, inevitable so high up in the ship, are permitted by the greater elasticity of the alloy.  In addition to the working stresses transmitted from the hull, there are wind l loadings from North Atlantic gusts up to 70mph together with loads from the boats on their davits high up on the boat deck.
 
Finally the structural shell is perforated by numerous large external windows. As a result the superstructure, apart from the change of material, is given the same rigid construction as the hull.  Even the largest public rooms retain the standard grid of pillars and webs.  The exception is the theatre, for which all pillars had to be eliminated.  At this point concealed transverse beams are used above the auditorium, combined with an elegant use of longitudinally spanning structural partitions over the after part of the space to support the balcony and the deck above it.  The junction of the transverse webs with the outer shell at the sides is specially stiffened by solid plating for 3 to 4 feet fore and aft of each web, to improve resistance to vertical shear stresses from the hull.  This plating divides the large windows into irregular groups on the side elevation.

[Rob Lightbody]

From the Alcan Aluminium advert in Shipping World & Shipbuilder January 1969

The largest all-welded aluminium superstructure ever built in Britain ; the first ever to be designed as a longitudinally framed, integral - stressed extension of the hull itself ; the first ever superstructure to save so much weight that another deck could be added without sacrificing stability.

[pete cain]

excellent research Rob,it's mindblowing stuff, earlier I posted on Rotterdams expansion joint failure, on the' Rotterdam on video' topic, there's a lot of reading there about expansion joints......

https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,3634.msg40677.html#msg40677

[Isabelle Prondzynski]

excellent research Rob,it's mindblowing stuff, earlier I posted on Rotterdams expansion joint failure, on the' Rotterdam on video' topic, there's a lot of reading there about expansion joints......

https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,3634.msg40677.html#msg40677

Fascinating stuff, Rob and Pete and Rod -- and thanks a million for bringing all this information here! It is such a pleasure to read about the workings of the ship as a piece of architecture and engineering.

Rob, what is AR / QE2?

[Rob Lightbody]

Oh sorry. It's the Architecture Review publication. A wonderful item.

[Rod]

Rosie,
To answer your questions:
I have no idea what the ships conditions are in Dubai are. Whether they have water circulating around the ship, have various sections shut off. I just do not know. If for instances they have all onboard personell living in one section and have water shut off to all others, then when water is turned back on there will be a magnitude of floods. All hot pipes were copper, sadly, bleach, for water purification, and copper do not go together well. Every time we went to Hong Kong for 3-4 days on the world cruise we would replace around 600 feet of main pipe. Smaller diameters could be replaced at sea by ships staff. I will say that by now the copper piping on QE2 must be in a terrible state. It is 42 years old!

Patches on the aluminium. Outside temps should not make a difference as long as they all change at the same time and the patches have the same co-efficient of expansion ast the original material.

The rubber...yess all of the above.

[pete cain]

 Pride of the North Atlantic,  David F Hutchings, p203 '

 ''  Lloyd's ship surveyors were also keenly  interested in the superstructure as it was to be regarded as part of the ship's strength
    structure.  Accordingly, expansion joints ( the narrow, protected transverse 'gaps' in the uppermost deck of a ship that allowed
   the superstructure to 'work' in heavy weather  when the main hull bends) were ommitted....................

     ..............The various weight saving exercises proved to be a worthwhile - and potentially profitable - operation but it also
   affected the centre of gravity which, as a consequence, had to be lowered.  The usual method of remedying this problem
   would have been to add, in Q4's case, 750 tons of otherwise useless ballast to the bottom of the ship. But the designers     
   ingeniously did away with the use of this dead weight and instead turned it to advantage.
        Their solution was to increase certain steel plate thicknesses in areas where greater than usual wear (or corrosion) could be
   reasonably expected to occour, such as in the lower most structure................and in the fore part of hull , strengthening it
  against ice. Increasing the weight of steelwork within the double bottom cells also added to the ship's strength''.

   Quite an amount of this information is repeated in ,

   QE2   Britains Greatest Liner,   Bruce Peter,Philip Dawson,  Ian Johnston,   
   with the addition on P 63,

   ''The alloy superstructure was stressed so as to take up the relatively large bending and twisting forces passed up from the
   hull's movement................  The inherantly greater elasticity of the alloy was better able to take up the greater movement
   and larger structural stresses so high up in a sizeable ship than could be absorbed by a comparable steel structure....................

.................Without the structural stiffening elements of a conventional strength deck and the lapped plating of a traditionally
   riveted hull, special attention had to be given to the added rigidity that could be gaind from internal web frames, extending
   several metres in from the ship's sides......................................

  As a result, the liner had an exceptionally robust hull bottom, a factor which helped to ensure a long operational career''.

  So the question is,  after reading the above extracts, is it reasonable to assume that she was (still is)  without doubt  a
  'Robust' lady in the hull department, but is so robust  the upper decks although stressed , were without said expansion joint
  and as we've all seen, was subject to fatigue ?. Can somebody please tell me what stressed means in this context?
  does the alloy become de-stressed over the years , thus contributing to the fatigue?

 A postscript,  a little one liner I found on the above  book , also on P63  ''Oriana'', ''which was otherwise a prototype for much of Q4's lightweight structural innovativeness'', Q4 nearly built in Barrow...................

     

[Bob C.]

Can somebody please tell me what stressed means in this context?
  does the alloy become de-stressed over the years , thus contributing to the fatigue?

 

"Stressed" in this case means "designed for". Replace the term and it should make better sense.  And, no, you cannot destress.  the only way to do this is in the scrap yard when a ship is taken down.

WARNING: TECHNICAL SPEAK TO FOLLOW

A way to look at the stresses experienced in a ship is to take a rectangular rubber pencil eraser and bend it length-wise.  Bending it up you'll see compression on the top and stretching on the bottom and vice versa for bending it down.  The further away from the middle of the eraser (where there is no stress, theoretically), the greater the stresses when bending.  The ship bends like this in waves and also twists but I won't get into torsional stresses. 

Bottom line: one of the main reasons QE2's superstructure cracks and has all of those stregthening fillets and patches is because of the constant compression, tension (stretching) and torsion (twisting) stresses created by the ship's motion on the sea being applied far from the vertical and horizontal longitudinal centerline of the ship.   

Although aluminum is more ductile ("stretchier") than steel, it does not stand up to the constant cycling of stresses as long as steel does and therefore fails (cracks, etc.) before the steel.

[pete cain]

Thanks for that Bob, I mainly 'get it', do you think, with all the progress made in the last 40yrs, that the alloy available today would stand up to the treatment any better, I wonder was the alloy available at the time marine specific, or just stock aluminium?

[Willum]

When the ship came out there were no expansion joints or cracks. However, when the Penthouses were fitted this altered the stress forces and a crack opened up in bad N.Atlantic weather that went all the way from Port to Starboard at a point just where the Queens Grill bar was located and rain would find its way through and wet the carpet by the bar. The crack in the aluminium floor went through the fan room by R/O's cabin S4 and in bad weather you could look through it and see it opening and closing and hear it creak as the aluminium ground together. In drydock the crack would be welded up but inevitably next N.Atlantic it would open up again an I once heard it go with a bang as I was in Cabin S4. Eventually in drydock the crack was 'formalised' and a rubber loop was fitted and bolted across the gap.

[Hank Hargrove]

SS Rotterdam is one of the rare ships, I am told, where the expansion joints in her hull are clearly marked and easy to see :

https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=55206992@N00&q=rotterdam%20expansion

Here is one of these pictures, showing the expansion joint as the black line looking a bit like a thermometer in shape :


Expansion joints by prondis_in_kenya, on Flickr

I wonder whether QE2 had expansion joints, and if so, where were they located?

That is unusual. It's a nice touch.

[June Ingram]

Thank you very much, Willum, for further explanation.

[Adam Hodson]

Thanks to all for this information. You always learn something new about our QE2.