Author Topic: QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?  (Read 25483 times)

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Offline Isabelle Prondzynski

QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« on: Oct 11, 2009, 12:22 AM »
I wonder about the ship's "name" QE2. She must have gone from being Queen Elizabeth 2 to QE2 at some stage...

Is it right that QE2 was the ship's name in the first instance? Now, we so often see that the Queen of the United Kingdom herself is called QE2, as are the hospitals, bridges and highways named after her. Can anyone confirm that all this happened only after the ship's name was abbreviated to QE2?

Online Michael Gallagher

QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #1 on: Oct 11, 2009, 04:13 AM »
Isabelle - using 'QE2' is down to laziness. What annoys me is the fact that the Queen Elizabeth II Bridge at Dartford is known as the QE2 Bridge when it should be known as 'Queen Elizabeth the Second Bridge' as the bridge does not have a 2 in its title. Same for the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre - people call it the QE2 Conference Centre when it shouldn't be. I accept QE2 is easier and what a tribute to our ship!

Offline jdl

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QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #2 on: Oct 11, 2009, 05:56 AM »
Isabelle - using 'QE2' is down to laziness. What annoys me is the fact that the Queen Elizabeth II Bridge at Dartford is known as the QE2 Bridge when it should be known as 'Queen Elizabeth the Second Bridge' as the bridge does not have a 2 in its title. Same for the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre - people call it the QE2 Conference Centre when it shouldn't be. I accept QE2 is easier and what a tribute to our ship!

it's also worth noting the reason for the use of 2 rather than the roman numerical II - the roman is used for monarchs, hence things like the QEII conference centre are so called as they are named after the queen of England. The QE2 uses the suffix '2' as she is named after the first queen elizabeth ship not monarch - this also conveniently solved the problem of the royal connection with Scotland - the Scotts don't recognise the first royal queen Elizabeth of Scotland, hence the current queen is known as queen Elizabeth the second only in England in Scotland she is simply queen Elizabeth.

Thus calling the ship after an unrecognised monar b would have been a political minefield so utlising the ship and creating QE2 solved this and created possibly one of the most famous three letters in shipping history!

jdl   

Offline Isabelle Prondzynski

QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #3 on: Aug 02, 2011, 09:53 PM »
Something that intrigues me...

At the launch, the Queen said :

"I name this ship Queen Elizabeth the Second. May God bless her and all who sail in her".

After the Queen had said this, did anybody else ever call the ship Queen Elizabeth the Second? I am not thinking about the written form, Queen Elizabeth II or QEII, both of which are all too common -- but did anyone (and I am thinking of Cunard above all!) ever call her by the same name that the Queen had given her?

Online Rob Lightbody

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QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #4 on: Aug 02, 2011, 10:21 PM »
The Queen got it wrong!  I still think that she simply got carried away and said her own name.
Passionate about QE2's service life for 40 years and creator of this website.  I have worked in IT for 28 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Offline Bob C.

QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #5 on: Aug 02, 2011, 10:45 PM »
I have no validation of this logic but will offer it anyway - that's what one of the things this forum is for, right?

I believe that the proper way to say the name of the monarch Queen Elizabeth II is "Queen Elizabeth the Second".  The cleverness of the ship's name, decided on pretty much at the last minute, was that QE2 is the second Cunard queen named Elizabeth rather than being named ater the monarch thus the Arabic numeral "2" at the end of the ship's name instead of the monarch's Roman numeral "II".  So with both the monarch and the ship having the same name, but with differing designating number types, the proper way to say both the monarch's and the ship's names is "Queen Elizabeth the Second".

Now who has called QE2 by "Queen Elizabeth the Second"?  I'll bet very few.  QE2, Queen Elizabeth 2, and a multitude of nicknames is what I have always heard her called.  In fact, during my era onboard from August 1969 to July 1979, she was referred to QE2 and Queen Elizabeth 2 by her own crew. 

Bottom line I'm betting "Queen Elizabeth the Second" was short lived.  Perhaps as short as the launch ceremony.   
« Last Edit: Oct 18, 2011, 08:57 PM by Bob C. »

Offline StuM

QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #6 on: Oct 28, 2011, 08:00 PM »
Re the article, while a small issue, it states that the QE2 is named after the current UK queen. I was always under the impression, since launching in Sept '67, that her name and use of the Roman "II", was in reference to being the second ship of that name. Following the QE of 1939. Did I dream that as I grew up with here in the 60's and watched her develop and become a true ship?
StuM

Offline Bob C.

QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #7 on: Oct 29, 2011, 12:46 PM »
Re the article, while a small issue, it states that the QE2 is named after the current UK queen. I was always under the impression, since launching in Sept '67, that her name and use of the Roman "II", was in reference to being the second ship of that name. Following the QE of 1939. Did I dream that as I grew up with here in the 60's and watched her develop and become a true ship?
StuM

StuM,
    You're assumption is correct and the article is wrong.  I read and thought the same thing.

Offline lperkins

QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #8 on: Nov 28, 2011, 04:41 PM »
StuM,
    You're assumption is correct and the article is wrong.  I read and thought the same thing.

Are you sure about that? I can remember in the captains cabin there was a letter from Buckingham Palace confirming that the ship was indeed named after the current Queen...
I have copy of it somewhere but not sure exactly where it is....

Lawrence

Online Michael Gallagher

QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #9 on: Nov 30, 2011, 12:06 PM »
This is the letter lperkins refers to. The letter is incorrect.

Pat Curry

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QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #10 on: Nov 30, 2011, 06:39 PM »
Some error :o.
It begs loads of questions.  It's a little hard to read but the does the writer refer to the ship as Queen Elizabeth 11? 

And who was the writer and to whom was it sent?

Was it a fake?

Online Rob Lightbody

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QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #11 on: Nov 30, 2011, 06:53 PM »
LOL!

Buckingham palace shouldn't have been commenting on something it doesn't know anything about (if it was written by the palace).  The palace's PR office must have lots of staff, answering daft questions all day long, they're allowed to make the odd mistake I suppose!

The ship's name is, and always has been, WELDED onto the side of it and has been on every piece of registration with a 2 not a II.
« Last Edit: Nov 30, 2011, 06:56 PM by Rob Lightbody »
Passionate about QE2's service life for 40 years and creator of this website.  I have worked in IT for 28 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Online Michael Gallagher

QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #12 on: Nov 30, 2011, 08:14 PM »
Back to the letter in the Captain's Cabin:

While Serving on QE2 in 1988 one of her future Captains wanted to get a definitive response to who or what exactly QE2 was named after. He wrote to Buckingham Palace using the name of a female friend on 17 July 1988.

On 27 July 1988, Robert Fellowes, Private Secretary to HM The Queen, replied to say:

“Thank you for your letter of 17 July. The Queen Elizabeth II was indeed named after Queen Elizabeth II, and the ship’s proper name is Queen Elizabeth II.”


Offline Twynkle

QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #13 on: Nov 30, 2011, 10:42 PM »
Back to the letter in the Captain's Cabin:

While Serving on QE2 in 1988 one of her future Captains wanted to get a definitive response to who or what exactly QE2 was named after. He wrote to Buckingham Palace using the name of a female friend on 17 July 1988.

On 27 July 1988, Robert Fellowes, Private Secretary to HM The Queen, replied to say:

“Thank you for your letter of 17 July. The Queen Elizabeth II was indeed named after Queen Elizabeth II, and the ship’s proper name is Queen Elizabeth II.”



This feels a bit like Alice in Wonderland - however, because the words 'Off with her head' come to mind...had better be just a bit serious for a moment or two!
My understanding was that, like StuM, QE2 was always going to be QE2, after RMS Queen Elizabeth (without a one).
Thoughts now turn to the letter.  Could the original have been answered by Sir Robert in any other way?
It couldn't, could it? Otherwise it might have been 'off with his head.....'!

Flagship, do you know when the first written reference to QE2's name was made, before she was launched?
Maybe it remains confidential, if so - it would understandably remain one of life great little mysteries!
Thank you!
Rosie - way off topic...

« Last Edit: Dec 01, 2011, 06:51 PM by Twynkle »

Online Michael Gallagher

Re: QE2 or QEII? What's in a name?
« Reply #14 on: Nov 30, 2011, 11:40 PM »
NOTE FROM THE FORUM ADMINISTRATOR - THE AWESOME INFORMATION IN THIS POST, AS WITH ALL POSTS ON THE FORUM, IS NOT TO BE RE-USED ELSEWHERE WITHOUT PERMISSION.  

Rosie,

The final selection of names had been decided in May 1967 by Sir Basil Smallpeice and his deputy Ronald Senior. They met in Cunard’s London offices on the evening of Monday 18 September where Sir Basil took three names from a safe. They then agreed on the final choice.

Later Sir Basil would confirm that the three names in the safe were Queen Elizabeth, Princess Margaret and Princess Anne with Elizabeth joining the list last after the decision to retire the Queen Elizabeth had been made.

When the choice was made, a message was sent by scrambler telephone to the Queen through her private secretary, Sir Michael Adeane, in Balmoral. They were the only four to know the name.

Afterwards when asked why all the secrecy, Sir Basil said:
“It just seemed rather fun. People seemed to having a marvellous time trying to work out what it
would be called. We decided to let them carry on.  We were anxious to continue our tradition of royal
names for our ships. I did not, by the way, have a bet with the bookmaker”.


Princess Margaret became the 4-1 favourite on the eve of the launch when it was announced at the last moment that she would also be attending the ceremony. Workers had chalked Princess Anne on the liner’s hull – that was the name Captain Warwick liked. Prince Charles carried the shortest odds.

Captain Warwick said:
“I have already said in the past that I would not like the name ‘Queen’ to be given to this ship”.

Captain Warwick, when interviewed earlier in the year and asked about the name, stated: “I dare say they’re mulling it over in the boardroom, but if they’re reached a decision they certainly haven’t told me. Why should they? I’m not concerned with names. I’m a sailor.”

In January 1966 the Daily Mirror columnist, Cassandra, wrote:

“The next question for romanticists such as myself is to speculate on what they are going
to call the new maritime giant, which is known simply as No.736. I predict that there will be
enormous pressure to christen the new Cunarder a Queen. But which queen?

“we are short of reigning queens in English history. The Normans, the Plantagenets, the Tudors, the Stuarts,
the Hanovarians, the Saxe-Coburgs and the Windsors have only produced half-a-dozen in the past thousand years.
  
“Two Marys, two Elizabeths, one Anne and one Victoria. Queen Anne was a colourless nobody and Queen Victoria
was a colourful somebody.

“So RMS Queen Victoria is a distinct possibility for that dumpy little old lady was a real character who
ruled for sixty-four years at the height of British imperial wealth and power.

“The Americans who will be the main clients foe the ship would, I am sure, settle for RMS Winston Churchill.
They are very fond of that old Anglo-American party.

“My own suggestion doesn’t stand a hope in high water. It is that the new ship be called John Brown. A fine
solid British name that any commoner should be proud of.

“Nobody would know which John Brown. The chap who founded the firm that will build the ship. The whisky
drinking Scottish ghillie who for nineteen years dominated Queen Victoria. The John Brown whose soul goes
marching on. John Brown the celebrated Northumberland poet. John Brown who wrote the famous Dictionary
of the Bible. John Brown the celebrated Edinburgh theologian of any of the thirty eight John Browns who are
listed in the London telephone directory.

“It would provide endless argument as to which John Brown was meant that would rage in every bar in the
country, including the bars onboard RMS John Brown.

“I just want to be helpful”.


More than 15,000 bets had been placed with the bookmakers and a Glasgow bookmaker was offering the following odds:

3 – 1      Sir Winston Churchill
4 – 1      Prince of Wales
             Prince Charles
             Princess Margaret
5 – 1      Britannia
6 – 1      Princess Anne
             John F Kennedy
8 – 1      Queen Victoria
10 – 1     Aquitania
12 – 1     Mauretania
14 – 1     Queen Elizabeth II      
              Prince Philip
              Atlantic Princess
25 – 1     Clyde Princess
              British Princess

Other suggestions: Queen of the United States, Great Britain, Ocean Queen, The Crown and Anchor, Rose of England, Twiggy, The New Elizabethan, Gloriana, Windsor Wave and Donald Campbell (he had been killed a few weeks earlier).

Housewife Helen Gormley suggested ‘Helen Gormley’.

Over 400 names were suggested with the last suggestion, Francis Chichester, arriving in the last 48 hours.

Of course The Queen named the ship ‘Queen Elizabeth the Second’.

In July 1967 plans had been put in place by Cunard to ensure the offices in Montreal and New York were advised of the name just as soon as it was known. Each office would have a model of Q4 and the company proposed to keep a hotline from Glasgow to Montreal and New York. The moment the name was announced by the Queen both offices would be informed of the name and perform a little ceremony round their own respective models. Staff in the offices would immediately place the name of the ship on her stern, crack a suitably miniature bottle of champagne on her bows with, the company hoped, the guests cheering!

The name ‘Queen Elizabeth the Second’ immediately caused controversy. “Unimaginative” was the typical English reaction but in Scotland: “insulting”, “provocative”, and “disgraceful”.

The Scottish Nationalists took it as an insult to the people of Scotland. To them the queen was Elizabeth the First. Mr Arthur Donaldson, chairman of the Scottish Nationalist Party, said: "It could not be a bigger insult to the people of Scotland”.

More than 500 calls were made to the various offices of Cunard in the UK to congratulate the company on the choice.

When asked about the other names, Sir Basil’s responses were:

Churchill?  

There is already a schooner of that name. And Cunard has not forgotten the day it picked Queen Mary for a name only to find a Clyde steamer already owned it. The name had to be bought and the steamer became QMII.

Prince Philip or Prince Charles?

The tradition of merchant ships in this country is that they always take the name of women.

In his autobiography ‘Of Comets and Queens’ Sir Basil would later write:


“In thinking about the name for Q4, I could not ask the Queen to give it her own name, because only
battleships had ever been allowed to take the name of a reigning monarch. On the other hand, it was
to be a successor Queen ship, as the cipher Q4 indicated. I talked the matter over with the Queen’s
Private Secretary, Sir Michael (now Lord) Adeane. In the end we decided to recommend that it should
simply be named Queen Elizabeth - just as, for example, we had had two Mauretanias and two Caronias.
After all, the new ship would be coming into service almost immediately after the first Queen Elizabeth
was withdrawn, and the two Queen Elizabeths would not be in service on the high seas at the same time.

“Her Majesty had the same sure instinct about a name as her grandfather had had. As was customary at
all launching ceremonies, John Brown’s managing director, John Rannie, had handed the Queen a slip of
paper with the name
written on it – Queen Elizabeth. But those of us standing near noticed she never looked at it. I could
hardly contain my delight when, in launching the ship, the Queen announced without a moment’s
hesitation: “I name this ship Queen Elizabeth the Second”.

“It was what I wanted but had not dared ask for. No name could have assured the ship of more worldwide
renown. It remained only to decide how to write the name. I did not feel we should use ‘Queen Elizabeth II’,
which is the official designation of the Queen as sovereign; it would be wrong to use that style in all our
advertising and publicity. I thought the use of an Arabic 2 instead of a Roman II might make a sufficient
distinction, and I was pleased to hear from Michael Adeane that the Queen had approved the styling of
the ship Queen Elizabeth 2”.


On 1 February 1968 Cunard made its first public statement about the name using an Arabic 2 rather than
a Roman Numeral:


“The name of the new 58,000 ton Cunarder will appear on the ship as Queen Elizabeth 2 – not Queen
Elizabeth II.

“This decision, like other decisions about the design of the ship, was taken for sound practical reasons.

“As with motorway signs, for clarity at a distance it was necessary to use block lettering for the name on
the bow and stern of the ship. Roman numerals cannot all be successfully represented with block lettering
– in particular the Roma figure ‘II’ can only be represented by a repeated Arabic numeral 1 and then
unfortunately appears as a figure 11.

“The decision has the advantages of being in keeping with modern design trends (Roman numerals are
disappearing even from such traditional manifestations as clock faces, and the fly leaves of books), and
the popular contraction of the ship’s name is much more legible and attractive as QE2 than QEII”
.
« Last Edit: Dec 01, 2011, 09:35 PM by Rob Lightbody »