Author Topic: Accidents and mishaps at sea  (Read 119945 times)

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Online Peter Mugridge

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Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #405 on: Mar 26, 2024, 09:32 PM »
Whilst I can see that a power outage could cause the rudder to become locked, surely she was headed straight to go under the bridge.

So my question is that if a 95,000 ton vessel is proceeding straight at around 8 knots, how long before she would lose steerage and start drifting?

I wonder if she was making a starboard turn to line up with the centre span at the critical moment?  If there was also a wind from her portside, that may have been enough - a graphic on the BBC News tonight showed she was only about 15° off course in the last minute or two before the impact.

The news did also say the crew managed to send a mayday call in enough time that the authorities were able to close the bridge to any traffic that wasn't already on it, which made a difference - the time, 01.30, also helped in that respect as there was very little traffic around anyway.

I agree about the tugs, though.  It must have been known that the bridge would be vulnerable and it never pays to assume the circumstances would not conspire to create a worst case scenario.
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Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #406 on: Mar 27, 2024, 08:25 AM »
Regarding the tugs again, I watched a playback of the marine tracker data, and 2 tugs assist the Dali out of her berth, and with her initial turn, then once she's pointing at the bridge, they leave her to it.  By the time she crashes into the bridge, the 2 tugs are docked again.  When you watch it, its fairly unbelievable, it also doesn't seem like it would have taken much extra time for them to stay with Dali until she was safely through the bridge. 
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Online Andy Holloway

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #407 on: Mar 27, 2024, 05:31 PM »
Regarding the tugs again, I watched a playback of the marine tracker data, and 2 tugs assist the Dali out of her berth, and with her initial turn, then once she's pointing at the bridge, they leave her to it.  By the time she crashes into the bridge, the 2 tugs are docked again.  When you watch it, its fairly unbelievable, it also doesn't seem like it would have taken much extra time for them to stay with Dali until she was safely through the bridge.

Had they known she was going to loose power then they possibly would have remained on station but, unfortunately tug boat Captains aren't psycics, neither stangely enough are Pilots or ship's Master.

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #408 on: Mar 27, 2024, 05:59 PM »
Had they known she was going to loose power then they possibly would have remained on station but, unfortunately tug boat Captains aren't psycics, neither stangely enough are Pilots or ship's Master.

Its not anyone on board the ships I'm blaming.  Its someone like a civil/structural engineer, realising that the bridge pre-dates big ships, and wasn't designed in the same way as a new one would be (with the buffers "dolphins" I heard them called to protect the legs, so is very vulnerable.  Also the fact that its an utterly crucial part of the cities road network, and has the capacity to block the entire harbour, all would surely lend to someone in authority saying that tugs should stay with large ships until the ships are clear of the bridge?  I've heard lots of stories of power black-outs on ships (including QE2 and QM2), so its not that unusual... similarly high-sided ships like this one getting caught in the wind and pushed off course.

This armchair expert thinks that someone should have said - the bridge is fine - its well maintained and as designed, but it wasn't designed to cope with a modern ship hitting it, so we need to take precautions.
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Offline June Ingram

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Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #409 on: Mar 27, 2024, 10:55 PM »
Whether it is true or not, some interviews with dock workers indicated Dali was having electrical problems during her two days in port. I can’t imagine that the captain would take her to sea on a 20 something day voyage with the possibility of getting stuck in the middle of the ocean in a storm, and we would have another El Faro.

Something else to consider in this age of terror attacks, and it doesn’t seem as though Dali was being used as a weapon, but it does seem to me that extra precautions need to be taken on all shipping near bridges. Terror attack or not, a major port and a major roadway are incapacitated for no knowing how long.

There are three naval ships stuck in the harbor with no way to get out.
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Online Chris Thompson

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #410 on: Mar 28, 2024, 12:15 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/us/could-protective-barriers-prevented-baltimore-bridge-collapse

Regarding the question of Pier protection for the bridge I saw this today.
The following statistic is quite disturbing!

Quote
From 1960 to 2015, there were 35 major bridge collapses worldwide due to ship or barge collisions, with a total of 342 people killed, according to a 2018 report from the World Association for Waterborne Transport Infrastructure.

Offline Rod

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #411 on: Mar 28, 2024, 06:36 PM »
I read recently, wish I could remember where, but it was since this disaster occurred, that a bridge in the eastern US in a similar situation had had these "dolphins" retrofitted.
The  cost was over $100 million !

I know, no value on human life, going to cost more than that to sort thuis out now etc, etc...... but as they say, hindsight is 20/20.
Ladies and Gents, I dont know the answer. BUT I do know that as in every disaster "the name of the game is the name to bla
AND they have just pulled 2 more bodies from a truck near by.
Do the Forth bridges have any protection of this sort?

Online Andy Holloway

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #412 on: Mar 28, 2024, 07:06 PM »
In 2004 i was seconded to Miami Office for 6 months to assist the Company Security Officer with several 'projects' including, QM2s initial call into New York and, later that year, her stay in Athens for the 2004 Olympics.

Prior to QM2s initial call into NY we, CSO and myself, visited NY to have a meeting with NYPD Special Ops team, who were based in a set of offices in an unsecured car park somewhere in Brooklyn. After 'tailgating' someone leaving the facility, we wandered around until stumbling across the two NYPD Officers we had our appointment with. During our meeting we covered the many aspects of the visit that presented 'security' risks until they ame to theri biggest worry. That was that a stowaway could hijack the ship and drive it into the Verrazano Bridge, thereby bringing NY to a virtual standstill. We 'reasured' them that should this occure, and the risk assesment of that was very, very low, then the ship would come to a halt when it struck the rock pillars that extended out into the bay by about 40/50ft, that the concrete pillars were built on. This was one of the factors CSO had looked into some weeks before in consultation with a Civil Engineer.

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #413 on: Mar 29, 2024, 06:32 PM »
Do the Forth bridges have any protection of this sort?

Images attached are from the original 60s built forth bridge
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Offline Twynkle

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #414 on: Mar 29, 2024, 10:20 PM »
 So very sorry - this must be an appalling shock, as well a dreadful nuisance for the entire community of Baltimore too.

I understood that the crew on board the MV Dali were just numbering 21.
2 Pilots had joined.
Given these numbers, it would seem to be pitifully few - no more on watch than say 5 at a time -
If crew included the Galleystaff as well as the Bridge and Engine room etc,
then would this be a typical number for Any type of container ship...?

Another report here
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-dali-captain-ukrainian-baltimore-bridge-601539523278

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #415 on: Mar 29, 2024, 11:43 PM »
So very sorry - this must be an appalling shock, as well a dreadful nuisance for the entire community of Baltimore too.

I understood that the crew on board the MV Dali were just numbering 21.
2 Pilots had joined.
Given these numbers, it would seem to be pitifully few - no more on watch than say 5 at a time -
If crew included the Galleystaff as well as the Bridge and Engine room etc,
then would this be a typical number for Any type of container ship...?

Another report here
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-dali-captain-ukrainian-baltimore-bridge-601539523278

The crew number is normal for a modern cargo ship and all the crew would've been involved in departing port except the cook and messman who would've likely been sleeping ready to be up early for their usual daily slog.
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2 in her new life, in Dubai, in January 2020 and August 2022.

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #416 on: Mar 30, 2024, 12:02 AM »
Regarding the tugs again, I watched a playback of the marine tracker data, and 2 tugs assist the Dali out of her berth, and with her initial turn, then once she's pointing at the bridge, they leave her to it.  By the time she crashes into the bridge, the 2 tugs are docked again.  When you watch it, its fairly unbelievable, it also doesn't seem like it would have taken much extra time for them to stay with Dali until she was safely through the bridge.

The speed of the ship by then (around 8 knots) is above the speed the tugs can do their job properly if at all. The ship going at this speed and higher for her own steerage for aiming to go under the middle of the bridge's span. Also when a ship gets up enough speed she'll tend to gravitate to the middle of the deep water channel due to the pressure zones at play. Squat could also come into the equation for bridge clearance even at 8 knots - ships sometimes having the squat amount at a given speed in a poster on the bridge.

So the compromise is do you risk this worst case and thankfully rare scenario happening again or do you risk the ship going under the bridge at around 3 to 4 knots absolute maximum with tugs where she is even more at the mercy of the wind with her high sides which the tugs may or may not be able to counteract enough at that point (different to when she's barely moving and is near the berth with space to spare). The latter scenario then bringing line snapping even more into the equation for the tugs to deal with as well as the fore and aft mooring teams on the ship.

The bridge should've been better prepared for this worst case scenario.
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2 in her new life, in Dubai, in January 2020 and August 2022.

Online Thomas Hypher

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Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #417 on: Mar 30, 2024, 12:13 AM »
So my question is that if a 95,000 ton vessel is proceeding straight at around 8 knots, how long before she would lose steerage and start drifting?

The wind and the current would decide this likely before her rudder would lose directional authority if it were in completely still weather and water conditions so it's very variable.

On my first ship (the Afromax oil tanker) it surprised me how slowly we were going and still had steerage when manoeuvring alongside the oil terminals. Helm orders were still being issued at times as we went dead slow ahead and dead slow astern and the tugs manoeuvred us alongside. It surprised me how much manoeuvring the ship did herself despite us only going 2 knots absolute maximum by that point. Whichever of the ABs on the helm at the time would call out when steerage was lost during the docking process.

It's definitely a team effort between a cargo ship and the tugs despite cargo ships not being known for their manoeuvrability often being single screw, single rudder and often lacking bow thrusters as well as having a high deadweight when fully loaded.
« Last Edit: Mar 30, 2024, 05:24 PM by Thomas Hypher »
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2 in her new life, in Dubai, in January 2020 and August 2022.

Online Rob Lightbody

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Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #418 on: Mar 30, 2024, 10:02 AM »
Thanks for the additional insider information!

From knowing about Waverley, I'd realised that going too slow can be a problem too, I think really the conclusion here is that the bridge definitely should have been better protected, and I would think thats what the enquiry should come out with.

There must be other states/cities/countries rushing to upgrade theirs now, I should think...
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Online Chris Thompson

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #419 on: Apr 01, 2024, 01:06 PM »
Thankyou Thomas for the info, wish the news stations would reach out to someone like yourself before going on the air with their crackpot theories! Particularly liked the 'why didn't they drop the Anchors?', folks have been watching too many movies.