Author Topic: Accidents and mishaps at sea  (Read 119941 times)

0 Members and 8 Guests are viewing this topic.

Online Chris Thompson

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #330 on: Feb 19, 2022, 01:07 PM »
And there is this one that was all over Facebook.
What gets me is the passengers just sitting there for a moment while their feet get wet!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6uuGWCUuOc

Online Rob Lightbody

  • Administrator
  • Queens Grill Diner
  • *****
  • Posts: 12247
  • Total likes: 15608
  • Helping to Keep The Legend Alive
    • Rob Lightbody dot com
Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #331 on: Feb 21, 2022, 04:35 PM »
Anyone want a slightly singed Porsche? :D
Another Car carrier in trouble.
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/burning-cargo-ship-full-of-porsches-adrift-in-atlantic-ocean?obOrigUrl=true&ucid=XTuNP7My

Its quite interesting.  There is speculation that the electric cars on board have either caused the fire in the first place, or made matters worse once it started, because a battery fire cannot be put out in the normal ways.  I wonder if these car transporter ships have been altered to deal with the very different technology employed by the cargo now?   With thousands of cars on board, car fired must have happened previously, and been successfully dealt with surely?
Passionate about QE2's service life for 40 years and creator of this website.  I have worked in IT for 28 years and created my personal QE2 website in 1994.

Online Thomas Hypher

  • Queens Grill Diner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2862
  • Total likes: 5531
  • QE2 started a dream to go to sea - now a reality!
Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #332 on: Feb 21, 2022, 05:03 PM »
Its quite interesting.  There is speculation that the electric cars on board have either caused the fire in the first place, or made matters worse once it started, because a battery fire cannot be put out in the normal ways.  I wonder if these car transporter ships have been altered to deal with the very different technology employed by the cargo now?   With thousands of cars on board, car fired must have happened previously, and been successfully dealt with surely?

From my practical firefighting training for this very purpose, the shipping industry (and the rest of the world for that matter) is currently playing catch up, as whilst there are general means of sort of dealing with Lithium battery fires, the specialist means of dealing with them (specialist extinguishing agents) are still under development.

The means of dealing with these sorts of fires is by smothering and the niche dry powder agents for doing this most effectively for this type of fire may well require major rethinking of how they are deployed.
No sane person is going to get near a 2000 Celsius or so Lithium battery fed fire that is rapidly spreading within the confined environment onboard ship with a small dry powder hand portable extinguisher or a wheeled larger portable dry powder extinguisher (how dry powder has been deployed to date on ships) given they would be of little effect and therefore wouldn't buy enough time for more established means of directly attacking the fire as these portable extinguishers are meant to do for other types of fire (even fuel fires). Would it be feasible to run specialist dry powder just for dealing with Lithium battery fires through existing sprinkler systems or existing fire fighting hoses and hydrants or not? I don't think it would be, so the problem of tackling the fire properly remains and needs to be solved somehow, preferably without causing further danger to those tackling these sorts of fires, such as risk of electrocution or zero visibility or asphyxiation - the middle of those three being a major issue with deploying dry powder in a confined space such as on a ship.
Having said all this there is always boundary cooling and moving combustible items away from the boundary of the fire and just letting the fire burn itself out - not ideal but better than nothing.
« Last Edit: Feb 21, 2022, 05:10 PM by Thomas Hypher »
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2 in her new life, in Dubai, in January 2020 and August 2022.

Offline Rod

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #333 on: Mar 15, 2022, 10:57 PM »

Offline skilly56

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #334 on: Mar 16, 2022, 08:16 AM »
Yes Rod, and to me it indicates that crews today do not appear to be as highly trained and competent in their jobs as crews were a few decades back. Too much reliance on GPS, Satnav, and instrumentation, and not enough plain old Mark 1 Eyeball work, touchy-feely around the machinery, and intuition.
How on earth does one run a ship ashore with all those devices operating to keep you from NOT running ashore?
Don't they learn anything when training in the shore simulators?

When I went to sea, to become an engineer you first did a 4-5 year apprenticeship in a heavy marine workshop, repairing all types of ships that came into your port. When not on the ships you were in the workshop operating machine tools, welding, rebuilding machinery, or at night school learning more about metallurgy, stress & strain, properties of materials, etc. Or you did a cadetship with a shipping line, which supposedly covered all the above, but one didn't have the machine tools or the workshop.

Today, the trainees spend 14 months at sea with their 'Work books' (asking as many questions as they can to fill in the answers), plus 17 months in the classroom ashore, What they learn aboard their ship depends very much on the attitude of the person the trainee is asking the question of. As we know, some seafarers will tell the trainees exactly where to go, and stop pestering me! (Put very politely!)

Perhaps, for the safety of other vessels around the world, the Evergreen Line ships should become 'Ever Stopped', until their crew training systems and certification have been checked to see how many 'pirate tickets' they are employing, and to see why their STCW seems to be deficient.
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2022, 08:20 AM by skilly56 »

Online Chris Thompson

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #335 on: Mar 16, 2022, 11:35 AM »
Quote
to me it indicates that crews today do not appear to be as highly trained

Very good point Skilly, from my experience the last 15 years or so this is common in all corners of the trade world from Plumbing, electrical right through to the service industry, bars and restaurants etc. Here in the US either too much reliance on trade schools (from personal experience often a scam!) or no training at all! Bring back the apprentice program!!!!

Online Chris Thompson

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #336 on: Mar 16, 2022, 11:38 AM »
And I have to follow up with what the hack is going on with the US navy, to darned busy teaching "Social Awareness" classes at the expense of basic ship operation, hence the various accidents they have experienced over the last few years....Oh I know, probably being too political here! :D

Online Andy Holloway

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #337 on: Mar 16, 2022, 12:26 PM »
Part of Thomas's post read;

Having said all this there is always boundary cooling and moving combustible items away from the boundary of the fire and just letting the fire burn itself out - not ideal but better than nothing.

Having personal experience of several onboard fires in my life at sea, [24 RN/RM & 20 MN] i would say that the two points made are very important. Basically a ship is just a 6 sided metal box, as is a fire in any specific compartment, and as such heat*, part of the 3 components of a fire - 'a source of ignition*, oxygen & a fuel' - needs to be restricted if  possible, but certainly reduced at the very least. Hence Boundary Cooling is an important element of fighting any onboard fire. Having been involved in Fire Party Duties all my MN life i have been part of all the different 'coal face' parts of Fire Fighting, from On Scene Commander to Boundary Cooling, Area Control & Induction Training. Sadly, two of the incidents i was involved in resulted in fatalities which believe me is not an easy thing to face. So you have to have a bit of a 'sense of humour' to get you through what can be a long incident. One of the ways when i was with Princess [Sun Princess & Coral Princess] my Boundary Cooling Party used was 'singing', our favourite was; "We put the COOL in Boundary Cooling", in a semi Reggie style!  Always raised a smile.     

Offline Rod

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #338 on: Mar 16, 2022, 12:49 PM »
What they learn aboard their ship depends very much on the attitude of the person the trainee is asking the question of. As we know, some seafarers will tell the trainees exactly where to go, and stop pestering me! (Put very politely!)

This part is sooooo true!
When I was doing my year at sea, I was very, very fortunate in my mentors. On the Franconia most of the Engineers were extremely generous with their time and knowledge One in particular was renowned throughout the fleet for his "back of a fag packet" drawings.
After I had been on the QE2 for a while I realized that I wanted to go the Hotel Service side of ships engineering, as I knew I did not want to spend my whole life at sea. Again , there were a couple of Engineers that were very generous with their time and knowledge.
I am proud to say that I am  "Bob Dolley trained"!

Online Thomas Hypher

  • Queens Grill Diner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2862
  • Total likes: 5531
  • QE2 started a dream to go to sea - now a reality!
Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #339 on: Mar 16, 2022, 12:57 PM »
Yes Rod, and to me it indicates that crews today do not appear to be as highly trained and competent in their jobs as crews were a few decades back. Too much reliance on GPS, Satnav, and instrumentation, and not enough plain old Mark 1 Eyeball work, touchy-feely around the machinery, and intuition.
How on earth does one run a ship ashore with all those devices operating to keep you from NOT running ashore?
Don't they learn anything when training in the shore simulators?

When I went to sea, to become an engineer you first did a 4-5 year apprenticeship in a heavy marine workshop, repairing all types of ships that came into your port. When not on the ships you were in the workshop operating machine tools, welding, rebuilding machinery, or at night school learning more about metallurgy, stress & strain, properties of materials, etc. Or you did a cadetship with a shipping line, which supposedly covered all the above, but one didn't have the machine tools or the workshop.

Today, the trainees spend 14 months at sea with their 'Work books' (asking as many questions as they can to fill in the answers), plus 17 months in the classroom ashore, What they learn aboard their ship depends very much on the attitude of the person the trainee is asking the question of. As we know, some seafarers will tell the trainees exactly where to go, and stop pestering me! (Put very politely!)

Perhaps, for the safety of other vessels around the world, the Evergreen Line ships should become 'Ever Stopped', until their crew training systems and certification have been checked to see how many 'pirate tickets' they are employing, and to see why their STCW seems to be deficient.

Our lecturers at Warsash have stressed the importance of not getting tunnel visioned with the bridge equipment and to look out the bloody windows! The mark 1 eyeball is an underrated tool! We have studied several shipping accidents (recent ones) as a class with our lecturers to avoid repeating the same common mistakes. We don't use the bridge simulators until much later in the 5 phase cadetship - instead spending time on a real bridge first including needing to gain a steering certificate from at least 10 hours on the helm in a variety of circumstances.

Us deckies here in the UK have to accrue 12 months sea time within the 3 year cadetship, and also have a work book. Accruing even the 12 months sea time is proving tricky at the moment with the consequences of COVID affecting several intakes of cadets now.

I am very keen to get to sea, to gain the real, hands on experience for which there is no substitute and just to be underway again on a ship! It'll help in the subject areas I've struggled in by putting what I've learnt into practice so it hopefully becomes second nature. We have also been told the cadet experience will vary depending on the ship for the reasons already mentioned in this topic, but to persevere if we get fobbed off (obviously without committing social suicide on the ship)!



Part of Thomas's post read;

Having said all this there is always boundary cooling and moving combustible items away from the boundary of the fire and just letting the fire burn itself out - not ideal but better than nothing.

Having personal experience of several onboard fires in my life at sea, [24 RN/RM & 20 MN] i would say that the two points made are very important. Basically a ship is just a 6 sided metal box, as is a fire in any specific compartment, and as such heat*, part of the 3 components of a fire - 'a source of ignition*, oxygen & a fuel' - needs to be restricted if  possible, but certainly reduced at the very least. Hence Boundary Cooling is an important element of fighting any onboard fire. Having been involved in Fire Party Duties all my MN life i have been part of all the different 'coal face' parts of Fire Fighting, from On Scene Commander to Boundary Cooling, Area Control & Induction Training. Sadly, two of the incidents i was involved in resulted in fatalities which believe me is not an easy thing to face. So you have to have a bit of a 'sense of humour' to get you through what can be a long incident. One of the ways when i was with Princess [Sun Princess & Coral Princess] my Boundary Cooling Party used was 'singing', our favourite was; "We put the COOL in Boundary Cooling", in a semi Reggie style!  Always raised a smile.     

One sure does feel a lot of responsibility when part of the on-scene command team even in training! Not to mention it being drilled into us to check our air frequently when firefighting, crouching to avoid the worst of any steam (which the firefighting gear doesn't stop scolding you), checking door temperatures before entry into a space etc etc etc. During the training we had a graphic demonstration with a marshmallow on a stick near the ceiling of why one stays low where possible when in the same space as the fire - nothing like a practical demonstration to make a point clear!
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2022, 01:13 PM by Thomas Hypher »
First sailed on QE2 in August 2003 aged 6 years old. Last sailed on QE2 in July 2008. Last saw the seagoing QE2 in person from the decks of QM2, on QE2's last Transatlantic crossing (Eastbound tandem) in October 2008. Visited QE2 in her new life, in Dubai, in January 2020 and August 2022.

Offline Rod

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #340 on: Mar 16, 2022, 05:52 PM »
About 20 years ago just off Port Everglades, a small (80,000 t6ons) had a fire in the laundry which spread up another 2 decks to the mooring deck aft. Of course it was shown live, on tv. Ship was about 2 miles offshore.
There were 2 hose parties aft, along with 2 tugs and a small US Coast Guard vessel all spraying water down the rounded part of the stern.
The newsman kept on commenting "I don't know why they are4 doing that? I spent 20 years in the US Navy and have never seen that!"
I was shouting at the tv "Boundary cooling you idiot!"
He didn't hear me.
When the Cunard Ambassador went on fire, Cunard staff had to beg the US Coast Guard to stop pouring water on the ship indiscriminately. The ship was beginning to take on a big list and was in danger of foundering because of the water.
For those non-nautical people among you the water that isn't turned into steam goes down and has to be pumped out. You can put too much water on the ship.
Look what happened to the USS Lafayette in NY harbour.  Formerly known as The Normandie.

Online Andy Holloway

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #341 on: Mar 16, 2022, 06:18 PM »
Around 1978[ish] HMS Bristol had what started as a small fire onboard but, due to what Rod describes above, she was very nearly capsized due to the amount of water being used to fight the fire, not being less than the amount of water being pumped out.
The RN learnt an important lesson that day which would stand them in good stead 4 years later.

Offline Rod

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #342 on: Mar 16, 2022, 06:52 PM »
My son stayed on Bristol, when he visited UK with the Sea Cadets.

Online Andy Holloway

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #343 on: Mar 16, 2022, 07:59 PM »
My son stayed on Bristol, when he visited UK with the Sea Cadets.
Yes, she was used as an accommodation ship in Portsmouth, berthed at HMS Excellent/Whale Island, mainly for SCC use, until she was placed on the 'Disposal list' in Dec 2020, but she had been unused since COVID first took hold earlier that year.

Online Chris Thompson

Re: Accidents and mishaps at sea
« Reply #344 on: Mar 22, 2022, 12:31 PM »
From Thomas -
Quote
Our lecturers at Warsash have stressed the importance of not getting tunnel visioned with the bridge equipment and to look out the bloody windows!

This is becoming very common, had a contractor out to the house the other day (there are only 5 on my street) and he went down two wrong driveways before coming down mine. He said his GPS sent him the wrong directions.....My mailbox is right next to my driveway and has great big brass numbers on it....and it is the first house on the street!!!!

A more serious issue is in the airline industry, one of my customers is an ex Boeing 737 test pilot. His view is that if you are going to call yourself a 'Pilot' fly the damned aircraft! There is way too much dependence on automation, he said the much publicized 737 Max crashes could have been easily prevented as he was very familiar with the systems.