Sewage Treatment on the QE2

[Rob Lightbody]

Can someone please explain how QE2's sewage system differs to that of a moderm cruise ship.

Thank you.

[skilly56]

Simple Rob
QE2 does not have a sewage TREATMENT system. She holds the raw product in the ballast tanks, then pumps it overboard when outside the local territorial limit, being 12 or 25 mile, still as raw sewage.
Nearly all ships built from the mid-seventies onwards have full sewage treatment systems on board, and nowadays the engineers are required to daily take and test samples of the discharge from these systems. The manufacturers blurb for the systems states the discharge must be 'drinkable' (definitely not for me).
At each and every port, the local environmental people can walk aboard and take samples, and if your system is discharging outside the prescribed criteria, look out!

The amount of time spent trying to make the sewage treatment systems work correctly can be incredible. You just get the system nicely 'balanced' organically when some clown goes and dumps some forbidden chemical cleaner down the toilet pans to clean them and kills all the hungry amoeba you have just spent 8 weeks cultivating.

No wonder engineers are going to shore jobs - if you want to be a sewage systems engineer, you can do that at the local treatment plant ashore.

Cheers
Skilly

[Rob Lightbody]

Amazing, i never knew this.

So, QE2 was exempt from having to treat sewage because she was old?  And no legislation ever required her to be retro-fitted with a sewage treatment plant?  Could this even have been done?

And - if she is to serve as an as-is hotel temporarily somewhere (the "cape town plan") - she'll need regularly emptied or connected to shoreside sewage systems?

[skilly56]

That's correct Rob, she didn't have to comply because she was so old. However, MARPOL 2010 (comes in to force tomorrow) has now banned her from operating in the Baltic, the North Sea, Mediterranean, US coastal waters, and some other 'sensitive' areas purely because of the sewage discharge problem - AND engine exhaust emissions.

As far as fitting sewage treatment plants - there is no space available in the engine rooms, they are already congested. You could remove three or four engines to make the room required, or alternatively, cut her in half and add a 15 metre section somewhere for all the required sewage tanks, compressors, pumps, treatment equipment, etc.

If all the people up top didn't eat and drink so much, it wouldn't be such a large problem!

Cheers
Skilly

[Isabelle Prondzynski]

That's an amazing thread! Thank you both -- both for the questions, and the answers.

I suppose this is a handicap that can be overcome in a stationary role -- but could it be a real problem getting her to a place where she can have a stationary role?

[Mauretania1907]

Possibly not, if she had just a running crew aboard, they would probably not fill the sewage tank and it could be pumped out. Mind you all the older cruise and passenger ships pumped out sewage while at sea. And having someone dump a chemical down on your hungry microbes would tick any engineer off!

[Twynkle]

That's correct Rob, she didn't have to comply because she was so old. However, MARPOL 2010 (comes in to force tomorrow) has now banned her from operating in the Baltic, the North Sea, Mediterranean, US coastal waters, and some other 'sensitive' areas purely because of the sewage discharge problem.

Hi Skilly -
MARPOL's definition of 'operating'.
Does this mean operating as passenger ship - e.g one that carries people who pay a fare on a journey?
Or - can 'operating' mean engines running both while moving as well as stationary?
Would travelling under tow without passengers be permitted?

I remember reading elsewhere that she needs fresh water supplies as 'the evaporators won't work without a propulsion load on the engines'...Would QE2 have the ability and capacity to generate this (fresh water) from sea water?
 

If all the people up top didn't eat and drink so much, it wouldn't be such a large problem!

Cheers
Skilly

OMW - would that all this had been known sooner...The midnight feasts, the 5 course dinners, the fantastic breakfasts - and that's before we've even got as far as Afternoon Teas....
I would have definitely paid not to eat, if I'd known that a waste disposal matter would preclude her from being at anchor, ever again!

Thanks, Skilly.
Not only do engineers have interesting work - it sounds pretty mucky as well!
Rosie

[Michael Gallagher]

Lengthy stays and overnights in ports also posed problems as they wanted to get her out and sailingh in order to discharge. Lengthy stays in port would require the tanks to be emptied while outside. And the reason for certain smells to take hold of Five and Four Decks at certain times was the result of the tanks being close to capacity!

[Peter Mugridge]

Skilly, just a thought but would there theoretically be enough room for such a treatment plant in the hold / former garage space without reducing stores capacity too much?

[Rob Lightbody]

Thanks guys.

So what I don't get is how on earth was QE2 ever going to carry on sailing past this MARPOL date?  Did Cunard have plans to do something?  The expense of adding a 15 foot section would obviously not have been considered!

[Peter Mugridge]

Rob - I have visions of a Heath Robinson arrangement with a processing plant in a barge welded to the hull...!!

Seriously, though, I had the matter of this MARPOL thing in mind when I asked the question in the post above yours, but also I'm now curious as to where such a plant could be squeezed in just out of interest.

I assume that the question of removing three engines to make room would be a non-starter.

[Rob Lightbody]

I assume that the question of removing three engines to make room would be a non-starter.

Yes - because for Lloyds-type reasons she has to have enough engines to 'make her go' in each engine room independently.

[Michael Gallagher]

Didn't I tell you we had plans to lengthen her while completely replacing the superstructure!

[Rob Lightbody]

Didn't I tell you we had plans to lengthen her while completely replacing the superstructure!

No   I suspect it would cost the same as qE3 has cost!

Myles gave me a great newspaper clipping from April 87.  It has an interview with Captain Portet in it.  He says that they all think QE2 will last a minimum of 20 years, but probably a lot longer because the ships they are building today are all 20 knots, whereas QE2 is 30 knots - UNLESS she is made obsolete - but he thinks this is unlikely because he says with confidence that nobody will build a big fast ship again.  Amazing how much the world has changed.  Speed is even less important, green issues are biting hard, and everybody wants a balcony.  Its topics like this one that make you realise how between 1987 and 2007 QE2 did, in many ways become very old very fast.  I bet 1987 Captain Portet would be gobsmacked to see Norwegian Epic...

[highlander0108]

This was the issue that was going to be most challenging to overcome, not the SOLAS regs, from what I was told while talking to a ships engineer while onboard in 2008.  All he said was that the plumibng system needed to be brought up to current standards and that was going to be a major undertaking.  I knew the system was primative since it was obvious the water used for flushing was taken directly from the water around the ship, hence the brown water in the toilets, no matter how many flushes, while in ports like Liverpool or New York.

[skilly56]

Hi Rosie,

Re producing fresh water from sea water, without a high heat output from the main engines (ie, as in when she is tied up and there is no propulsion load), the main evaporators would not produce any fresh water, so the ship would need to have a heap of reverse osmosis plants fitted (she already has 2 I think) to make fresh water.

Peter, your question re siting the treatment plants in the holds etc, this could possibly be achieved, or they could even remove some of the lowest deck cabins to increase the space available for the extra auxiliary machinery. However, getting all the plumbing connected up would be a major. Most installations have all the treatment plants in one space to reduce pipework and duplication of systems (each treatment plant has to have duty pumping systems, then standby pumping systems, air blowers, chlorinators etc. So, if you can get everything in one compartment, the standby machinery can do duty on a number of treatment plants and not just one.

Reading the posts, it certainly looks like all you people had a fun time last weekend. I still have a lot I want to see in the UK, so, one day.........?

Skilly

[skilly56]

And having someone dump a chemical down on your hungry microbes would tick any engineer off!

I love it!

[Bob C.]

Believe it or not, limit for discharging black water (sewage) is only 3 miles - blech!  I found this hard to believe when I was a navigator but it's true.  There may be exceptions but I'm not aware of any off the top of my head.

[RmsAquitania]

I remeber during a very rough crossing of the bay of biscay in 2006 i think, the smell of sewage in the bathroom and cabin of our cabin on 4 deck was terrible, the tanks must have been nearly full then !

[cunardqueen]

I bet 1987 Captain Portet would be gobsmacked to see Norwegian Epic...

Hes not the only one !!!

Regarding this dumping at sea lark, l seem to remember on the Maiden Voyage in 87 a lot of stuff went over the side, Not least  a grand Piano case, well so the rumour mill suggested. When did the dumping at sea officially stop. All the left over food, was it also dumped discharged at sea. There used to be a joke that QE2 was followed by the best fed sharks ever.

[Twynkle]

Hi Skilly
About on the 'on board treatment of sewage'.
Just wondering (!)  - When did this become the usual / normal method of waste disposal?
Even with on board treatment, would it not still be the case that there would be some degree of corrosion?

On another point and possibly a bit off the wall here(!) - regarding the pipework in closed parts of the system,
has there ever been the use of stuff like furnox as used in domestic radiator systems?
Doesn't it seem strange that even in the Sixties - with preparing for Man to the Moon etc, that tanks and pipes were
seemingly still quite primitive in their construction? - (this is another question arising from a certain naivety!!)

Cheers

Rosie

[skilly56]

Hi Rosie,

I think sewage treatment plants were coming into ships from the early seventies. When Golden Bay was built in 1978-9, Robb Caledon threw in the sewage plant and the waste incinerator free, just to seal the contract and get the job. Having a sewage plant on board meant the toilets had to be fresh water flushed so pipe corrosion was virtually eliminated. The actual sewage treatment plant itself was replaced 2 years ago as the original 1979 Hamworthy Super Trident had corroded out in the various chambers and a new breed of hungry 'gremlins' was considered to be the way to go.

In the last 2 years, environmental agencies have really begun to crack down on ship discharges in most parts of the world, and discharges from sewage treatment plants now get regular checking and testing. And this means treatment plants onshore are also having their discharges checked and tested - no more poo pumping directly into the sea from long pipelines, in civilised countries anyway.

In days of old when I was younger (wish I could be again - the aches & pains are becoming more frequent!) I worked on the Aranda, (one of the 'Three White Sisters' owned by P&O, and they carried about 300 pax.) and can still remember unbolting and rotating the long near-horizontal runs of sewage piping through 180 degrees in the hope the worst corroded sections would last a bit longer. I didn't hang around to see if the theory worked or not, but the sewage was held in tanks down in the shaft tunnels, and, like QE2, was pumped out at sea.

As far as putting proprietary additives into water systems - one has to be very careful here. If you put anti-corrosive additives into main engine jacket water cooling systems, and these products are also poisonous, then a minute leak in a pipe where it connects to an evaporator system to make fresh water for human consumption (like QE2 does), can have catastrophic consequences for passenger health. I'm not familiar with Furnox, but a radiator system normally does not have cross-connection to potable drinking water systems, so there would be no dangers.

BTW, I'm on the big bird to Perth next Sunday.

Cheers
Skilly

[RobertQM2]

Hello from the Austrian engineer!
I had the rare chance to walk the whole lenth of a Vista's underwater belly (cellar) once. From stern (with all the engines) to bow. Apart from the engineering side it was most impressive to see the purification machinery where I could see my own sh.. trough a window of a rotating dryer and to be burnt later for heating purposes. There a mostly 2 and for very important systems there are 3 identical arrangements to be on the safe side (for example when a norovirus hits a vessel). Another interesting piece was a 6 compartment deep freezer for the poor corpses who couldn't manage it to the end of the cruise . So no heat is accumulated from these poor ones to heat the vessel
kind regards

[Chris]

Ok, so here's a question.

What are they doing in Dubai without the luxury of discharging at sea?

--

We saw Queen Victoria's sewage treatment filters during our tour of the engine room - from our side, clean and smell-free. The view inside the glass didn't look so clean... non degradable materials (eg: plastic) are magically separated from the rest and released into plastic bins (perhaps someone else can explain the magic behind this).

The photo (below) is of the vacuum flush devices (QE2 wouldn't have had these).

[Imonlygoingforone]

What are they doing in Dubai without the luxury of discharging at sea?

They'll either discharge into trucks, or into a barge when the tanks become full - I think they learnt a few hard lessons from the beginning with regards to this....

There was an incident on QE2 a few years ago in Rio where the sewage barge sank (not the ships fault may I add). The result was a submerged barge, with a blocked in QE2. It took a day or so to get a large enough floating crane to drag it out of position. I think it must have been around 2003/04...

[Peter Mugridge]

Separation of non-degradables is easy enough; centrifuges with meshes in them.

[Twynkle]

Are there any the facilities on QE2 to treat any waste at all?
For example, dry waste -  glass and tin etc
If not, then I wonder - on longer sea voyages, where was such stuff stored?

[Bob C.]

What are they doing in Dubai without the luxury of discharging at sea?

I would assume QE2 like other vessels has pierside connections for potable water, electricity, telecommunications and sewage dischage (the term of art is CHT - Collection, Holding and Transfer).  I'm also assuming that Dubai has these connections at QE2's current berth.

[Rob Lightbody]

As a follow up to this fascinating topic, I have been informed, by the way, that this was NOT going to be a show-stopper for QE2 in 2010.  There are workarounds and get-out clauses for older ships, that means they can sometimes duck regulations - and this was to be the case with this set of regulations.  It could also, incidentally, be the case in future if need be...

[cunardqueen]

The photo (below) is of the vacuum flush devices (QE2 wouldn't have had these).
 
  

Interesting point BUT in the C Six book by  Dr Nigel Roberts he tells the story of a well known person who while at the Drs party used was caught short and asked to use his toilet, rather than sucking the contents, it malfunctioned and went whoosh, he was in the toilet for quite some time and emerged some time later somewhat flustered to say the least.
 Though no name is mentioned l wondered if it was Jimmy Carter, that name seemed to be doing the rounds at that time, Well over 20 years ago.  
 The first time l experienced one of those contraptions was on a P&O ferry, in the confines of my own cabin and having observed the "warning please close the toilet seat before flushing" The above tale came racing back to me and l did what any decent,sane person would do, Closed the seat and stood on it while pressing the flush button. I felt enormously stupid doing such a thing and took comfort that no one would see me.. But what surprised me was the noise it made, had l not gone when l did l would have probably gone right then, mercifully they seemed to have tamed down since those days. But l still dont like them

[Twynkle]

Surely the heads on QE2 were true to form,
as well-mannered as the old girl is /was herself...



Myles - little wonder your memories are so important!

[Speedbird178]

Skilly,

It is incorrect to say that the QE2 has no sewage treatment system.  It does have one.  A MARLAND sewage treatment system, which was installed by Marine Ventures Limited; tailor-made to suit the limited space there was/is on board.  It consists of tankage that separates solids from liquids, using screening filters, powerful pumps, and chemicals.  Solids "sludge" is pumped off onto honey barges, while in port (or it can be pumped overboard in high seas).  The liquids are pumped overboard after being treated with hydrochlorite-based chemicals; except in US ports (where they just don't operate the pumps -- just keep it on board in holding tanks till they leave port). 

[skilly56]

Hi Speedbird,

The difference between what you are describing, and what is commonly accepted since the mid-late 1970's as 'an-onboard sewage treatment system' is that 'all' the effluent in a treatment system is treated before discharge from the ship. What you are describing is a system where the solids are removed first, and only the liquids are treated before discharging overboard.

Whether the solids go away in the 'honey barge' (always get a laugh at how the marine fraternity manage to apply names that are a complete contradiction of what they really describe , or get pumped out once the disposal limit has been passed, the solids are still totally untreated.

There is a huge difference in the requirements of the two different methods.

Don't know if this will get through - we are rocking & rolling off W.A here at present and the Telstra signal isn't that good.

Cheers

Skilly

[Rob Lightbody]

Thanks guys!  I have to say I still find this topic bizarrely fascinating!

[Rod]

Skilly,

It is incorrect to say that the QE2 has no sewage treatment system.  It does have one.  A MARLAND sewage treatment system, which was installed by Marine Ventures Limited; tailor-made to suit the limited space there was/is on board.  It consists of tankage that separates solids from liquids, using screening filters, powerful pumps, and chemicals.  Solids "sludge" is pumped off onto honey barges, while in port (or it can be pumped overboard in high seas).  The liquids are pumped overboard after being treated with hydrochlorite-based chemicals; except in US ports (where they just don't operate the pumps -- just keep it on board in holding tanks till they leave port). 

Good. I was getting fed up reading garbage from people that do not know.
At the time the Marland system was installed, it complied to the Japanese health laws. Which is why it was installed. They were the strongest in the world at the time.
 With the Marland system, ALL sewage dumped overboard was treated....lets be honest that just means adding bleach.
The system, as quoted above, was capable of storing, selective dumping, or total dumping.

[Rod]

Interesting point BUT in the C Six book by  Dr Nigel Roberts he tells the story of a well known person who while at the Drs party used was caught short and asked to use his toilet, rather than sucking the contents, it malfunctioned and went whoosh, he was in the toilet for quite some time and emerged some time later somewhat flustered to say the least.
 Though no name is mentioned l wondered if it was Jimmy Carter, that name seemed to be doing the rounds at that time, Well over 20 years ago.  
 The first time l experienced one of those contraptions was on a P&O ferry, in the confines of my own cabin and having observed the "warning please close the toilet seat before flushing" The above tale came racing back to me and l did what any decent,sane person would do, Closed the seat and stood on it while pressing the flush button. I felt enormously stupid doing such a thing and took comfort that no one would see me.. But what surprised me was the noise it made, had l not gone when l did l would have probably gone right then, mercifully they seemed to have tamed down since those days. But l still dont like them

This was called "Getting your own back"

The flush valve had a leather cup washer on the piston to regulate its closing speed. If the leather got hard or torn , the valve would open fully immediately, causing almost an explosion of sea water, with the obvious consequences. It could also cause burst pipes as the valves slammed shut, outting full pressure back on the system. Most of the "Niagra, Niagra" calls were caused by banging flush valves.

It is a fascinating subject...now lets get on to waste in space!