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Non-QE2 Area => QE2's Successors => RMS Queen Mary 2 => Topic started by: Oceanic on Apr 03, 2018, 04:43 PM

Title: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Apr 03, 2018, 04:43 PM
Just out of pure curiosity is anyone privy to the fastest time QM2 has achieved across the Atlantic? I'm aware that the fastest she is capable of is a hair over 30 Knots, nowhere near Blue Riband reaching levels, but still a swift pace for a liner regardless.

Judging off pure statistics the QM2 should be able to easily break the original Mauretania's record of 4.5 days but to my knowledge, Cunard has never disclosed her fastest crossing, does anyone hold any idea of her true speed?
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 03, 2018, 05:17 PM
Just out of pure curiosity is anyone privy to the fastest time QM2 has achieved across the Atlantic? I'm aware that the fastest she is capable of is a hair over 30 Knots, nowhere near Blue Riband reaching levels, but still a swift pace for a liner regardless.

Judging off pure statistics the QM2 should be able to easily break the original Mauretania's record of 4.5 days but to my knowledge, Cunard has never disclosed her fastest crossing, does anyone hold any idea of her true speed?

30 knots was on full power trials on the speed runs over the measured mile (not sustained or sustainable) before corrections for sea and other weather conditions. She went 29.63 knots flat out after the corrections and was designed for the 6 night crossing. She is slower than most people think (from what I've seen at least) but is still very impressive for the largest ocean liner ever built by some margin (in volume - GRT - at least)!

She would need a good current behind her to compete with Mauretania (1)!
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: June Ingram on Apr 03, 2018, 05:38 PM
QM2 could be a "sprinter", but she could not maintain a fast speed for a period of time without huffing and puffing greatly.
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 03, 2018, 05:45 PM
QM2 could be a "sprinter", but she could not maintain a fast speed for a period of time without huffing and puffing greatly.

Not to mention the jet fuel/kerosene consumption at above the mid 20s in knots...
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Twynkle on Apr 03, 2018, 06:39 PM
QM2 could be a "sprinter", but she could not maintain a fast speed for a period of time without huffing and puffing greatly.
Hi June,
Just thinking about what you have mentioned - quite seriously!
QM2 certainly didn't falter in any way when sailing at speed out of New York City in order to avoid the effects of Hurricane Sandy.
Our experience of QM2 at speed has been anything other than 'huffing' or 'puffing' - she is steady as a rock in a good force 10, sailing into significantly impressive swells.
However, the time that she isn't quite as easy with the sea is when she's sailing more slowly than the speed she was designed to make.
She loves the North Atlantic - and unlike the Vista Class ships, she rarely moves; on the whole she keeps well to time. Frequent Fog on the Grand Banks - and occasionally even on the Solent are the only times that we have known her just a little late for her ETA!
QE2, Likewise!
This is one of the best topics too, have a look at Holy Nougat's post #72!
https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,57.0.htm
Rosie.
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 03, 2018, 06:54 PM
Hi June,
Just thinking about what you have mentioned - quite seriously!
QM2 certainly didn't falter in any way when sailing at speed out of New York City in order to avoid the effects off Hurricane Sandy.
Our experience of QM2 at speed has been anything other than 'huffing' or 'puffing' - she is steady as a rock in a good force 10, sailing into significantly impressive swells.
However, the time that she isn't quite as easy with the sea is when she's sailing more slowly than the speed she was designed to make.
She loves the North Atlantic - and unlike the Vesta Class ships, she rarely moves; on the whole she keeps well to time. Frequent Fog on the Grand Banks - and occasionally even on the Solent are the only times that we have known her just a little late for her ETA!
QE2, Likewise!
This is one of the best topics too, have a look at Holy Nougat's posts!
https://www.theqe2story.com/forum/index.php/topic,57.0.htm
Rosie.

I think June may have been referring to near 30 knot speeds, such as the 28.5 knot service speed QE2 maintained for the 5 night crossings (until changing to 6 nights in the late 1990s to reduce wear and tear) and the old Queens did for their transatlantics. QM2 would struggle with this partly due to being designed specifically for the 6 night crossing instead. However, I do agree she doesn't huff and puff within what's normally expected of her. 26 to 27 knots being reached and maintained easily when needed but seldom seen. The last tandem with QE2 (my first voyage on QM2) was at around 24 to 25 knots if I remember correctly and both ships were just ticking over as we'd expect although QM2 was using at least one of her two gas turbines. My further four voyages on QM2 to date have been rather more sedate and I therefore agree she does move about more at the slower speeds than she was designed for that she operates at most of the time these days (around 20 knots or less on cruises and around 21 knots on the transatlantics from personal experience).

I recently read the topic you've linked to, and found Holy Nougat's posts particularly interesting!
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: June Ingram on Apr 03, 2018, 06:58 PM
Hi Rosie -

My comment about QM2 was slightly tongue in cheek.  QM2 is a great ship and can certainly move.  But she wasn't designed to be an Atlantic greyhound and to always sail at top speed.  It would be too expensive anyway for her to always sail at top speed.

You probably have already guessed over the years that regardless of "anything", QE2 is my favorite !

June   :)
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 03, 2018, 07:10 PM
Hi Rosie -

My comment about QM2 was slightly tongue in cheek.  QM2 is a great ship and can certainly move.  But she wasn't designed to be an Atlantic greyhound and to always sail at top speed.  It would be too expensive anyway for her to always sail at top speed.

You probably have already guessed over the years that regardless of "anything", QE2 is my favorite !

June   :)

Indeed, the accountants and other business people at Carnival UK have the final say money wise (which is a shame they have such control and influence in this and several other areas particularly regarding QM2 and what she's designed for - sailing at reasonably high speeds for a passenger ship these days if she was crossing in 6 nights)...
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Rob Lightbody on Apr 03, 2018, 07:19 PM
Indeed, the accountants and other business people at Carnival UK have the final say money wise (which is a shame they have such control and influence in this and several other areas particularly regarding QM2 and what she's designed for - sailing at reasonably high speeds for a passenger ship these days if she was crossing in 6 nights)...

What she's designed for, like QE2, is making money!  As much of it as possible!  The most amazing money-making machines in the world!!
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 03, 2018, 07:30 PM
What she's designed for, like QE2, is making money!  As much of it as possible!  The most amazing money-making machines in the world!!

I agree, but recent years have seen Cunard (Carnival UK) taking the money making to new heights at the cost of the product they offer. More cost cutting and increased crossing time (more time with a captive audience) being examples of this. This is my and a number of other people's issue with Cunard when the product was very good irrespective of QE2, without going further off topic here...
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Apr 03, 2018, 07:42 PM
Thanks for all the replies, after doing a bit of further digging the general opinion was that QM2 can be maintained at 27 Knots but has never completed many crossings at these speeds due to the costs associated with running her diesels and gas turbines in tandem for long periods. It seems Cunard keeps her on quite a tight leash these days.

The way QM2 operates is greatly reminiscent of WSL’s policy from the early 20th century in a sense; with ships like the wonderful Oceanic and Olympic class taking a more leisurely pace across the Atlantic at 20-24knts while focusing more on great opulence than speed...

Or Cunard is just saving up the pennies!
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 03, 2018, 07:45 PM
The way QM2 operates is greatly reminiscent of WSL’s policy from the early 20th century in a sense; with ships like the wonderful Oceanic and Olympic class taking a more leisurely pace across the Atlantic at 20-24knts while focusing more on great opulence than speed...

Or Cunard is just saving up the pennies!

Saving the pennies and increasing the profit margins  ;)
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Apr 03, 2018, 07:51 PM
Saving the pennies and increasing the profit margins  ;)
I don’t know what your talking about Thomas! It’s not as if Cunard would do something as stupid as trying to pass two unsightly Vistas off as ocean liners... oh... wait.  ;)
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Rob Lightbody on Apr 03, 2018, 07:56 PM
Thanks for all the replies, after doing a bit of further digging the general opinion was that QM2 can be maintained at 27 Knots but has never completed many crossings at these speeds due to the costs associated with running her diesels and gas turbines in tandem for long periods. It seems Cunard keeps her on quite a tight leash these days.

The way QM2 operates is greatly reminiscent of WSL’s policy from the early 20th century in a sense; with ships like the wonderful Oceanic and Olympic class taking a more leisurely pace across the Atlantic at 20-24knts while focusing more on great opulence than speed...

Or Cunard is just saving up the pennies!

On Marine Traffic's website, you can set notifications for ships.  You can do a limited number of these for free.  A couple of months ago, I set a notification for QM2 exceeding 24 knots.  After receiving a surprising number of alerts about this (quite a few times a week) I increased it to 25 knots, and she still exceeded that a couple of times a week.  I now have it set at 26 knots, which its been at for a few days, and am awaiting a notification....

QE2 was called the "Last Great Liner" until QM2 came along, but I believe she still is that last of the line ship - designed to operate day-in-day-out at 28 knots, in all weathers - she was the last to be designed to do that.  The fact that they rebuilt her in 87 and actually boosted that then unique capability, is incredible.  Many people in 2008 didn't realise what was about to disappear - a wood-lined creaking porthole cabin, travelling at speed across the waters. 
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Apr 03, 2018, 10:47 PM
On Marine Traffic's website, you can set notifications for ships.  You can do a limited number of these for free.  A couple of months ago, I set a notification for QM2 exceeding 24 knots.  After receiving a surprising number of alerts about this (quite a few times a week) I increased it to 25 knots, and she still exceeded that a couple of times a week.  I now have it set at 26 knots, which its been at for a few days, and am awaiting a notification....

QE2 was called the "Last Great Liner" until QM2 came along, but I believe she still is that last of the line ship - designed to operate day-in-day-out at 28 knots, in all weathers - she was the last to be designed to do that.  The fact that they rebuilt her in 87 and actually boosted that then unique capability, is incredible.  Many people in 2008 didn't realise what was about to disappear - a wood-lined creaking porthole cabin, travelling at speed across the waters.
QE2 is indeed the last of a breed, she was the ultimate culmination of centuries of transatlantic travel and early cruising. She was large enough to be classed as a superliner but small enough to be practical. She was fast enough to turn a tight schedule but not to run up her fuel bills. And despite the transatlantic market finally setting she succeeded where others said she would fail. QE2 is the last of the transatlantic liners of old, she boasts unrivalled elegance combined with brilliant technological feats that make her worthy of legend and set her firmly in countless people’s hearts.

QM2 is the first true liner for a new age, she is the ultimate expression of what ships can be among a sea of countless cookie cutter hulks; she is a new dawn and a different legacy altogether.

QE2 and QM2 were and are the pinnacles of their respective eras and long may they reign.
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Barumfox on Apr 03, 2018, 11:41 PM
Thomas was quite right about the final eastbound transatlantic tandem being around 25-26 knots - by noon on the final day at sea - 21st October the two ships had covered 2731 NM at an average speed of 25.5 knots - basically a standard six day crossing.

However the first tandem in April 2004 was not a standard crossing as the ships left their berths late  - QE2 later than planned - and stopped for fireworks at the Statue of Liberty so clearing New York about 3 to 4 hours later than usual and then had an early afternoon appointment with a publicity helicopter and RAF Nimrod and Hawk off Cornwall on the 5th day so this called for (all 23 hour days) :

by Noon 26th - 311 miles at average 26.8Kts as gaining speed from dropping pilot - at noon doing 28.5 knots.
Noon 27th - 657miles at average 28.56
Noon 28th  - 649 miles - average 28.22
Noon 29th - 641 miles - average 27.87
Noon 30th - 644 miles -average 28.00

Total for four full days run - 2591 at average 28.16 knots - or  including the first half day 2902 at 28.01 knots.

At noon on the 30th we were longitude 6. 44W - as Bishops Rock is 6.26 W - I make this 18 miles to the traditional Blue Riband end point which could have taken us less than 40 minutes as we were still doing 28.5 knots at noon in a Force 6  - had been Force 3 to 4 most of the way across. The crossing time to Bishops Rock if 28.5 was maintained would have been about 4 days 12 hours 25 mins by my calculations (104 hours 25 mins hours for 2920 miles)

Therefore QM2 is (or certainly was) a genuine 28.5 knot crossing ship - I have no doubt that the first days run could have been maintained the whole way if it had been necessary to make up the time lost on departure. It was also nice that on her last crossing as flagship QE2 had done a days run at her old service speed - and that the overall speed above to Noon  was virtually the same as on her crossing May 2nd to May 7th 1969 - which was 28.02 knots.

QM2 is therefore 4th on the Cunard fastest crossing list - after Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and QE2 in that order - with the Mauretania 5th with her amazing 27.22 in 1929 - if she had been allowed another crack at regaining the Riband from the Bremen in more favourable weather conditions she may have done a 28 knot crossing as well.

Gary Petersen


Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Apr 03, 2018, 11:46 PM
Thomas was quite right about the final eastbound transatlantic tandem being around 25-26 knots - by noon on the final day at sea - 21st October the two ships had covered 2731 NM at an average speed of 25.5 knots - basically a standard six day crossing.

However the first tandem in April 2004 was not a standard crossing as the ships left their berths late  - QE2 later than planned - and stopped for fireworks at the Statue of Liberty so clearing New York about 3 to 4 hours later than usual and then had an early afternoon appointment with a publicity helicopter and RAF Nimrod and Hawk off Cornwall on the 5th day so this called for (all 23 hour days) :

by Noon 26th - 311 miles at average 26.8Kts as gaining speed from dropping pilot - at noon doing 28.5 knots.
Noon 27th - 657miles at average 28.56
Noon 28th  - 649 miles - average 28.22
Noon 29th - 641 miles - average 27.87
Noon 30th - 644 miles -average 28.00

Total for four full days run - 2591 at average 28.16 knots - or  including the first half day 2902 at 28.01 knots.

At noon on the 30th we were longitude 6. 44W - as Bishops Rock is 6.26 W - I make this 18 miles to the traditional Blue Riband end point which could have taken us less than 40 minutes as we were still doing 28.5 knots at noon in a Force 6  - had been Force 3 to 4 most of the way across. The crossing time to Bishops Rock if 28.5 was maintained would have been about 4 days 12 hours 25 mins by my calculations (104 hours 25 mins hours for 2920 miles)

Therefore QM2 is (or certainly was) a genuine 28.5 knot crossing ship - I have no doubt that the first days run could have been maintained the whole way if it had been necessary to make up the time lost on departure. It was also nice that on her last crossing as flagship QE2 had done a days run at her old service speed - and that the overall speed above to Noon  was virtually the same as on her crossing May 2nd to May 7th 1969 - which was 28.02 knots.

QM2 is therefore 4th on the Cunard fastest crossing list - after Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and QE2 in that order - with the Mauretania 5th with her amazing 27.22 in 1929 - if she had been allowed another crack at regaining the Riband from the Bremen in more favourable weather conditions she may have done a 28 knot crossing as well.

Gary Petersen
Thank you for this brilliant breakdown of QM2's fastest crossing; it is incredible to see just how fast she can be while making her muzzling by Cunard even more disappointing!

On a side note, it's amazing to see just how fast the old Mauretania was despite her age; the old girl never stopped kicking until the very end!
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 04, 2018, 07:50 AM
Thomas was quite right about the final eastbound transatlantic tandem being around 25-26 knots - by noon on the final day at sea - 21st October the two ships had covered 2731 NM at an average speed of 25.5 knots - basically a standard six day crossing.

However the first tandem in April 2004 was not a standard crossing as the ships left their berths late  - QE2 later than planned - and stopped for fireworks at the Statue of Liberty so clearing New York about 3 to 4 hours later than usual and then had an early afternoon appointment with a publicity helicopter and RAF Nimrod and Hawk off Cornwall on the 5th day so this called for (all 23 hour days) :

by Noon 26th - 311 miles at average 26.8Kts as gaining speed from dropping pilot - at noon doing 28.5 knots.
Noon 27th - 657miles at average 28.56
Noon 28th  - 649 miles - average 28.22
Noon 29th - 641 miles - average 27.87
Noon 30th - 644 miles -average 28.00

Total for four full days run - 2591 at average 28.16 knots - or  including the first half day 2902 at 28.01 knots.

At noon on the 30th we were longitude 6. 44W - as Bishops Rock is 6.26 W - I make this 18 miles to the traditional Blue Riband end point which could have taken us less than 40 minutes as we were still doing 28.5 knots at noon in a Force 6  - had been Force 3 to 4 most of the way across. The crossing time to Bishops Rock if 28.5 was maintained would have been about 4 days 12 hours 25 mins by my calculations (104 hours 25 mins hours for 2920 miles)

Therefore QM2 is (or certainly was) a genuine 28.5 knot crossing ship - I have no doubt that the first days run could have been maintained the whole way if it had been necessary to make up the time lost on departure. It was also nice that on her last crossing as flagship QE2 had done a days run at her old service speed - and that the overall speed above to Noon  was virtually the same as on her crossing May 2nd to May 7th 1969 - which was 28.02 knots.

QM2 is therefore 4th on the Cunard fastest crossing list - after Queen Mary, Queen Elizabeth and QE2 in that order - with the Mauretania 5th with her amazing 27.22 in 1929 - if she had been allowed another crack at regaining the Riband from the Bremen in more favourable weather conditions she may have done a 28 knot crossing as well.

Gary Petersen

Thank you Gary! My memory of the tandem is getting, well... more distant with nearly 10 years elapsed! Holy Nougat's post in the topic Rosie linked to in her above post is quite enlightening regarding QM2's capabilities in 2004 and her capabilities now:

I spent around 4 years on QE2 and 5 years on QM2 as a Deck Officer - QE2 was faster, for sure.
QM2's service speed was basically her top speed, whereas QE2's service speed was significantly lower than her top speed. I say 'was' for QM2, because she is now slower than she was when she entered service due to load restrictions on the DG's.
QE2 was just as fast at the end as she was when converted to Diesel.
The whole service speed thing is a bit of a con anyway - very few ships go around at a set speed, service speed gives the impression that it is somehow the most efficient speed, whereas it seldom is.
My current command apparently has a service speed of 17.0 Knots - simply put - it does not.

This seems to tally with your data on the final tandem with QE2 in October 2008, the upper limit of QM2's speeds in recent years (27 knots or so), and the general consensus as stated by Oceanic.
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Apr 04, 2018, 02:55 PM
And I right in saying QM2 is still the fastest large passenger ship in service? With QE2 permenantly moored and the only other active liners, Marco Polo and Astoria, both running slower cruise duties is there any ship that can challenge her 25-28 knot sustainable speed and 30 knot sprint pace?
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 04, 2018, 03:29 PM
And I right in saying QM2 is still the fastest large passenger ship in service? With QE2 permenantly moored and the only other active liners, Marco Polo and Astoria, both running slower cruise duties is there any ship that can challenge her 25-28 knot sustainable speed and 30 knot sprint pace?

There are a pair of cruise ships that were built at Blohm + Voss in the Millennium that can achieve 28 knots (both have been involved in freak wave/storm incidence where they got into difficulties due to their design), and a number of large "cruise" type ferries that can operate at speeds in the 28 to 30 knot region. Having said this, QM2 is the largest by far of the faster contemporary passenger ships. Marco Polo and Astoria never being designed for speed in their original lives as Aleksandr Pushkin and Stockholm.
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Rob Lightbody on Apr 04, 2018, 10:47 PM
She exceeded 26 knots today, en route to Singapore.
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Barumfox on Apr 04, 2018, 11:55 PM
26 knots is respectable  - not many cruise ships can do this although i was on Oriana when she did 26.1 current assisted attempting to get to Naples on time in 2012. I believe I read somewhere that a couple of the NCL ships are capable of 28 but have no confirmation of this.

It is sad to hear her performance is now compromised compared to 2004. This must have happened sometime after the the final tandem with QE2 in October 2008 as one noon announcement on QE2 stated the ships were currently doing 29 knots - this was confirmed by the Chief Engineer Paul Yeoman at a cocktail party later  - he said he did not know why - just an instruction from the bridge. As QM2 went straight to Germany for a refit after reaching Southampton maybe the work was carried out then and her Captain just wanted to stretch her legs one last time - certainly Ian MacNaught would have been happy to do so as well.

The reduction in maximum speed is obviously another reason why they extended crossings to 7 days apart from fuel costs as she has less in reserve to make up for delays on a 6 day and being even a few hours behind schedule obviously leads to major problems with such short turnarounds in port these days.

Going back to the original Mauretania's attempt to regain the Blue Riband in 1929 she did the last 106 miles to Cherbourg at an average of 29.7 kts to demonstrate what could have been - then used to do 32 knots in the Gulf Stream on Caribbean cruises.

Gary.




Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Apr 05, 2018, 03:30 AM
26 knots is respectable  - not many cruise ships can do this although i was on Oriana when she did 26.1 current assisted attempting to get to Naples on time in 2012. I believe I read somewhere that a couple of the NCL ships are capable of 28 but have no confirmation of this.

It is sad to hear her performance is now compromised compared to 2004. This must have happened sometime after the the final tandem with QE2 in October 2008 as one noon announcement on QE2 stated the ships were currently doing 29 knots - this was confirmed by the Chief Engineer Paul Yeoman at a cocktail party later  - he said he did not know why - just an instruction from the bridge. As QM2 went straight to Germany for a refit after reaching Southampton maybe the work was carried out then and her Captain just wanted to stretch her legs one last time - certainly Ian MacNaught would have been happy to do so as well.

The reduction in maximum speed is obviously another reason why they extended crossings to 7 days apart from fuel costs as she has less in reserve to make up for delays on a 6 day and being even a few hours behind schedule obviously leads to major problems with such short turnarounds in port these days.

Going back to the original Mauretania's attempt to regain the Blue Riband in 1929 she did the last 106 miles to Cherbourg at an average of 29.7 kts to demonstrate what could have been - then used to do 32 knots in the Gulf Stream on Caribbean cruises.

Gary.
29.7 knots is an outstanding speed for a vessel of any era, let alone a ship of Mauretania’s age. You have to wonder how differently things might have been had the weather been more in Mauretania’s favour; it may have even extended her service life if she regained her greatest selling point, and would have certainly embarrassed the German liners Bremen and Europa!
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Barumfox on Apr 05, 2018, 05:55 PM
Possibly but it was the Great Depression that sent her cruising not the Bremen!

Trying to get back on thread I believe the QM2's 2004 crossing speed would put her 9th on the all time list behind United States, France*, QM, Normandie, QE, QE2, Rex, Bremen and ahead of Europa, Conte di Savoia and Mauretania.

* Do not have a record figure for France but second highest trial speed after SSUS and service speed of 31 knots - placed second for these reasons alone but may be lower in order  - any information gratefully received.

I am not aware if  Raffaello or Michelangelo - which did over 30 knots on trials - and which had an official service speed of 26.5 knots did any crossings over 27 knots.

Gary Petersen 
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Apr 05, 2018, 10:27 PM
Possibly but it was the Great Depression that sent her cruising not the Bremen!

Trying to get back on thread I believe the QM2's 2004 crossing speed would put her 9th on the all time list behind United States, France*, QM, Normandie, QE, QE2, Rex, Bremen and ahead of Europa, Conte di Savoia and Mauretania.

* Do not have a record figure for France but second highest trial speed after SSUS and service speed of 31 knots - placed second for these reasons alone but may be lower in order  - any information gratefully received.

I am not aware if  Raffaello or Michelangelo - which did over 30 knots on trials - and which had an official service speed of 26.5 knots did any crossings over 27 knots.

Gary Petersen
Thank you for taking the time to compile these statistics; it helps enormously in getting and pinpointing QM2's true speed.

It's impressive she is as fast as she is, considering the 65,542 GRT difference between QM2 and the formerly largest liner record holder Queen Elizabeth; and the former's power disadvantage when compared to older liners also works against her when the subject of speed comes up.
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Barumfox on Apr 05, 2018, 10:58 PM
Yes QM2 does have a power deficit against the original Queens and is much larger GRT wise but her actual displacement (weight) is fairly similar to the QM & QE at around 80,000 tons. QE2 is just under 50,000 displacement i believe.

There is also the issue of air and water resistance to take account of - not sure which Queen would have an advantage on these - although QE2 and QE appear the most streamlined above the waterline. The shape of Normandie's Yourkevitch hull was supposed to be superior to the QM's - but I am not aware which, if any, post-war liners adopted it.

Gary
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 05, 2018, 11:08 PM
The shape of Normandie's Yourkevitch hull was supposed to be superior to the QM's - but I am not aware which, if any, post-war liners adopted it.

Gary

Did SS France (1961) have a similar hull form to Normandie? Certainly bears a resemblance when looking beyond the similar paint scheme. I've always liked the "bow tie" type anchors on a side note!
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Apr 06, 2018, 12:25 AM
Yes QM2 does have a power deficit against the original Queens and is much larger GRT wise but her actual displacement (weight) is fairly similar to the QM & QE at around 80,000 tons. QE2 is just under 50,000 displacement i believe.

There is also the issue of air and water resistance to take account of - not sure which Queen would have an advantage on these - although QE2 and QE appear the most streamlined above the waterline. The shape of Normandie's Yourkevitch hull was supposed to be superior to the QM's - but I am not aware which, if any, post-war liners adopted it.

Gary
If we are measuring which of the Queen's hulls were the most efficient QM2 wins by a landslide due to her large bulb and sharply raked bow, both of which were built up over years of strenuous water-tank testing. QE2 would be a solid second, her hull and early bulb were revolutionary at the time and did an incredible job of parting the waves and bringing fuel costs down compared to other vessels of a similar age.

Yourkevitch's hull was a vast improvement over the likes of the Queen Mary's, enabling Normandie to compete with the QM's superior power and obtain similar speeds. However, the Second World War brought a temporary halt to the building of Atlantic Liners and when new superliners like the France and QE2 were finally constructed once more, newer hull technologies had rendered Yourkevitch's obsolete. It is worth noting, however, that QM2's raked bow is derived partly from Normandie, with the addition of the aforementioned bulb.
 
QM2 could make far better use of her brilliant hull if she was only given the power which graced the liners of past generations. If the original Queen Mary was able to obtain 31 Knots thanks to her 160,000 shp even with her terribly inefficient bow it makes you wonder what QM2 could hypothetically achieve with similar power figures.
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Barumfox on Apr 06, 2018, 01:47 AM
Comparative power figures quoted for liners do vary with the source:

I believe the maximum QM & QE generated was actually about 212,000 and I have seen a figure of 195,000 for Normandie.

I believe the official figure for QM2 on entering service was 157,000 but Lloyds Register has a figure of over 172,000 according to one book I have.

QE2 was 110,000 as steamship and 130,000 after conversion to diesel.

How advanced was United States hull compared to Normandie's - or France's? Obviously her power - 240,000 + and aluminium construction were major factors of her speed.

I believe Bremen was first major liner with bulbous bow so Mauretania was really up against it!
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Apr 06, 2018, 02:24 AM
Comparative power figures quoted for liners do vary with the source:

I believe the maximum QM & QE generated was actually about 212,000 and I have seen a figure of 195,000 for Normandie.

I believe the official figure for QM2 on entering service was 157,000 but Lloyds Register has a figure of over 172,000 according to one book I have.

QE2 was 110,000 as steamship and 130,000 after conversion to diesel.

How advanced was United States hull compared to Normandie's - or France's? Obviously her power - 240,000 + and aluminium construction were major factors of her speed.

I believe Bremen was first major liner with bulbous bow so Mauretania was really up against it!
To my knowledge the United States did not feature a particularly advanced hull design, instead, she toted a long used 'knife-edge' bow that narrowed sharply to the tip; it was actually far less advanced than the likes of the Normandie, evidenced by the enormous bow wave she created when venturing past 27 Knots or so. As a result, the United States relied more on her formidable power to weight ratio to claim the Blue Ribband, not superior hull design.

As previously discussed in the thread, QM2 performed a 28 Knot crossing when she was finally allowed without issue, despite her relatively conservative power figures for a ship of her size. That just goes to show how brilliant and efficient her hull is; if you give her fairly meagre power to the original Queen Mary or even the SS United States they would struggle in comparison to achieve what she can on the Atlantic.
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Clydebuilt1971 on Apr 09, 2018, 11:28 AM
I was on QM2 during a return TA in June 2009 - we went straight into the teeth of a storm one day out of NY.

When we eventually came out the other side she was flat out for two days - the skipper said approx 29.5knts in his midday announcements. I had no way of checking that obviously.

I have video from the port side aft "bump out" - regardless of what "flat out" was it was certainly a great feeling to be on something that size going at a high speed!

Gav
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 09, 2018, 04:14 PM
I have video from the port side aft "bump out" - regardless of what "flat out" was it was certainly a great feeling to be on something that size going at a high speed!

Gav

That's the modern day equivalent of a docking bridge in purpose/usage (an officer will stand on the relevant one with a walkie talkie in hand if needed). My Dad videoed me standing on the same port side one (with me trying to stay upright in the wind) with QE2 in the background during the final tandem transatlantic in October 2008 (About 1 minute, 9 seconds in). As Barumfox has said we were doing an average speed of 25 knots at the time for a (then) standard 6 night crossing...those were the days!


Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 09, 2018, 04:27 PM
My Dad's video above reminds me how much QM2 yaws in a swell despite her rather substantial skeg (rudder like extension from her keel, near her pods). QE2 didn't yaw quite as much from memory and videos I've seen over the years - likely explained by her more knife like hull form/shape whereas QM2's hull is quite wide and flat midships and in her aft section (like modern cruise ships and landing craft  ;) ).
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Twynkle on Apr 09, 2018, 05:29 PM
I was on QM2 during a return TA in June 2009 - we went straight into the teeth of a storm one day out of NY.

When we eventually came out the other side she was flat out for two days - the skipper said approx 29.5knts in his midday announcements. I had no way of checking that obviously....
Gav

Hi Gav - hate to say this, as you might groan...
Next time, there is "a way of checking", usually on sea days between  09.00 hrs and 16.00hrs, watching from the Bit Behind the Bridge! Speed and course as well a few more screens are visible as long as conditions allow - you mightn't have discovered it then - and possibly have since!
All the best
Rosie
 

Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Barumfox on Apr 10, 2018, 12:43 AM
Thomas - great video - I may have been filming the other way at the same time. Don't forget although the average was 25.5 kts we were doing 29Kts on at least one occasion - best days run was 601 miles - just over 26kts  - the weather was also not as good as in 2004 - higher winds.

With regard to Gav's comments I can believe that she could maintain 29.5kts in the right conditions - evidence of this would have been in the daily runs announced at noon and posted by the chart - as well as from the Navigation Information Channel as well as from the Bridge viewing gallery. Her best days run would probably have been when making up time after weather / other delays - I wonder if Michael Gallagher or someone else at Cunard could confirm the best days run she has done  - ideally all daily runs / voyage details would be made available on line somewhere as a historical record.

Gary
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Thomas Hypher on Apr 10, 2018, 02:19 AM
Thomas - great video - I may have been filming the other way at the same time. Don't forget although the average was 25.5 kts we were doing 29Kts on at least one occasion - best days run was 601 miles - just over 26kts  - the weather was also not as good as in 2004 - higher winds.

Small world!  :)
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Aug 28, 2019, 04:29 PM
Hello everyone, long time no see! :)

As you may have seen recently Chris Frame has released a wonderful interview with QM2 designer Steven Payne (the link for which can be found in Chris’ own post in the QM2 board) and during the course of the video one comment from Payne struck me as being relevant to this topic; when asked about how fast QM2 could do the Atlantic crossing “if pushed” he confirmed that the ship could do the “28.5 knot crossing, QE2’s schedule easily... with a decent margin.”

Although this isn’t a groundbreaking revelation, as it makes sense for her to have been designed to be capable of the 5 night crossing if desired, it’s good to hear further confirmation from the main architectect himself about QM2’s true, incredible, potential...

Now we just need Cunard to let her off the leash once in a while!

Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Rob Lightbody on Aug 29, 2019, 06:19 PM

Although this isn’t a groundbreaking revelation, as it makes sense for her to have been designed to be capable of the 5 night crossing if desired, it’s good to hear further confirmation from the main architectect himself about QM2’s true, incredible, potential...

Now we just need Cunard to let her off the leash once in a while!

I think he's not entirely unbiased in the matter, though!  QE2 had stopped doing the 5 night crossing many years before QM2 was being designed - and Cunard had already realised that slower = more profit... its a shame she's not allowed to do the 6 night crossing that she was designed for though!  The key thing about QE2 was that at 28.5 knots, she either had 1 or 2 diesel units completely offline, giving her that crucial redundancy factor at that speed. 

How much more fuel would QM2 burn on a 5-night vs 7-night crossing … environmental concerns would come into it now too, of course.
Title: Re: QM2: Atlantic Speed Runs.
Post by: Oceanic on Sep 04, 2019, 04:14 PM
I think he's not entirely unbiased in the matter, though!  QE2 had stopped doing the 5 night crossing many years before QM2 was being designed - and Cunard had already realised that slower = more profit... its a shame she's not allowed to do the 6 night crossing that she was designed for though!  The key thing about QE2 was that at 28.5 knots, she either had 1 or 2 diesel units completely offline, giving her that crucial redundancy factor at that speed. 

How much more fuel would QM2 burn on a 5-night vs 7-night crossing … environmental concerns would come into it now too, of course.
All true Rob, I have no doubt that it was never envisioned to have QM2 do the 5 night crossing, having to use all the diesels and turbines at once, all the time, wouldn't be feasible from a cost perspective  it's just merely interesting to hear that it is indeed possible. QM2 really should be allowed to do the six night transatlantic more often, she is a greyhound not a loping mule, but profits come first.

As for how much fuel she'd burn on a 5 night crossing, whilst I don't have any concrete data, it is known that the ship was designed with special attention given to her fuel consumption at varying speeds; for her size she's just about as fuel efficient as they come. The main issue with QM2 is the price of the fuel for those gas turbines, which far eclipses the cost of diesel.