QE2 Story Forum

Non-QE2 Area => QE2's Successors => The Cruise Sisters (QV & QE) => Topic started by: Rob Lightbody on Feb 13, 2014, 07:40 AM

Title: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: Rob Lightbody on Feb 13, 2014, 07:40 AM
British  Government accuses Argentina of harassment...

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/argentine-flag-order-to-liner
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: Peter Mugridge on Feb 13, 2014, 12:01 PM
Disgraceful - I trust that there will be a formal complaint from the Foreign Office?
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: June Ingram on Feb 13, 2014, 01:50 PM
Thanks, Rob, for posting this article.  What would Argentina do if the ship's captain were RNR and was flying the blue ensign ?
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: Peter Mugridge on Feb 13, 2014, 01:53 PM
Exocet, probably...
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: June Ingram on Feb 13, 2014, 02:11 PM
It would not be surprising...
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: highlander0108 on Feb 13, 2014, 05:09 PM
Story picked up by Cruise Critic.

http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=5730
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: pete cain on Feb 13, 2014, 07:28 PM
Should they even be flying that flag? a Bermuda registered ship  ???
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: cunardqueen on Feb 13, 2014, 09:00 PM
You would have thought common sence might have come into play and perhaps not tempt fate by flying a flag that might cause some annoyance....
But then its no longer registered as a Brittish ship, and what little links there are left to Britain might only be the Afternoon tea  ;)
Cunard as we know are very good at playing the British links when it suits and playing them down when it doesnt..
The Captain could have easily carried on flying the flag and paid the fine on point of principle or done what Captain Arnott did in Yalta, about turn and sail away ... and give the old fashioned two finger salute :o.
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: Conay on Feb 14, 2014, 12:06 AM
Should they even be flying that flag? a Bermuda registered ship  ???

Any ship registered in the United Kingdom, a Crown Dependency or a British Overseas Territory has the right to fly the Red Ensign. In eight of the BOTs (including Bermuda), you are also able to fly a defaced Red Ensign with the Coat of Arms of that territory/dependency.
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: Bruce Nicholls on Feb 14, 2014, 09:22 AM
Exocet, probably...
Fortunately they can't afford them at the moment which is why they are doing cheap things such as the anti British ships campaign.
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: Lynda Bradford on Feb 14, 2014, 10:05 AM
I remember reading that one of the P&O ships had cancelled Argentina ports of call last year, which had angered passengers.  But this situation with Queen Victoria is even worse as the Argentinian authorities are happy for the passengers to be spending their money onshore but denied the right for the ship to fly the ensign. 

What a pity the Captain did not up anchor and sail away!
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: June Ingram on Feb 14, 2014, 05:05 PM
Yes, I think perhaps the Captain should have sailed away playing Rule Brittania the whole way !  June
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: pete cain on Feb 14, 2014, 08:42 PM
Fully agree Cunard Queen & June, he should've had a plan B, (after all plan A didn't work did it!!)  maybe if Rosie is still onboard she could give us an update.
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: June Ingram on Feb 14, 2014, 09:11 PM
Yes, let's hope to hear from Rosie !
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: Bruce Nicholls on Feb 15, 2014, 02:41 PM
If Lady Cornwall writing in the letters column in today's Telegraph is correct, the UK sends £27 million in aid to Argentina. Evidently they are very grateful for this generosity!
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: June Ingram on Feb 17, 2014, 03:33 PM
It certainly seems that way.  I wonder what Argentina's definition of grateful is ?.....
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: Isabelle Prondzynski on Feb 17, 2014, 04:27 PM
If Lady Cornwall writing in the letters column in today's Telegraph is correct, the UK sends £27 million in aid to Argentina. Evidently they are very grateful for this generosity!

I wonder whether she said what these funds were for? Government budget support, or lots of small-scale projects helping individuals around the country?

Nowadays GBP 27 million in aid is not a fortune, and Argentina is certainly far from the top of the priority list for aid from the UK. The funds may go to small-scale beneficiaries who have nothing to do with the government, they may even be in the opposition. Quite possibly, the government would not care one hoot if these funds were stopped.

What matters far more to them is the politics surrounding the Falklands / Malvinas.

I agree though that their quarrel is with the UK government, not with a ship registered far from the UK which merely has a tiny bit of UK history -- this is not an ideal object for a show of disapproval. But then, the Queen Victoria also has nothing to do with the quarrel and should not take offence if told that the rules for Buenos Aires port demand a lowering of the Red Ensign. Such quarrels between two governments are of no great concern for non British ships, unless of course the British passengers and crew were in any way threatened.
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: June Ingram on Feb 17, 2014, 06:50 PM
Hi Isabelle - Thank you very much for your take on all of this.  It is much appreciated.  June

Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: Twynkle on Feb 18, 2014, 10:50 AM
Channel 4 News uses quotation marks, and you can read some, (but not all!) of the story here
http://blogs.channel4.com/cathy-newman-blog/admiral-sees-red-argentine-bid-ban-british-flag/433
It is interesting to note that the BBC may not have reported the 'story'. Maybe it hasn't been corroborated.

Facts - Throughout our time in the few Argentinian ports that we as guests have visited, we were treated very well indeed by the non-governmental guides and others who prepared food for us etc.
It was possible for us to walk about freely and make the best of our time in this exceptionally interesting part of South America.
However, there have been administrative and possibly logistical delays to both the ship's departures as well as of our arrivals.

In Ushuaia, there is a large sign welcoming visitors with, 'Ushuaia, Capital of Les Malvinas'

One of the excursion coaches with Guests on board was very slightly damaged.

We did notice extremes of poverty and wealth wherever we went. The economy ( and some of the infrastructure) is definitely needing the government's attention. There appears to be less in the way of attention to regulatory detail that we in western nations have needed to learn to live with.

We found that there was less affection in the rest of S. America for the Argentinians, however this is a long standing political problem, and as far as could be understood, and not specifically a pro- or anti- British problem.

(Just for info - the Duchess of Cornwall who named Queen Victoria, won't necessarily be referred to as 'Lady' Cornwall!
Also, there is plenty of accurate detail regarding the flags  (including Ensigns)  that ships are permitted to carry, raise and fly and what these represent / mean, on both the RN and Merchant Navy websites, as well as on this one! There is often confusion that is mixed up in nationality, government and rank - as well as registration!)

Admiral Lord West kindly telephoned me just before he left the ship.
He requested my email address etc so that (time permitting), he can 'think about' contributing his recollections of his return on board QE2 to the UK following the sinking of his ship HMS Ardent in the Falklands conflict in 1981. He was a visiting speaker on board Queen Victoria, and described his experience of the return as particularly sad. He came home with the remaining ship's company, together with those who remained from the sinking of HMS Coventry.
His talk about the campaign was salutory, and definitely was a considerable eye-opener for those who had previously formed opinions without having heard the history and facts and experience at first hand.

Today, we are 30,000+ feet above the sea bed. The  sea is six degrees higher than the air temp - and it's hot!
Yesterday, we were visited by all but 5 of the 45 Islanders of Pitcairn. Theirs is an extraordinary place and way of life. It was one of the most moving and memorable experiences.
Please Michael - did they call on QE2 as well? If it hasn't been already - it would be a great topic to start!
Maybe QE2 was one of the first ships to show passengers their wonderful way of life!

(Sorry mods - this needs moving appropriately -Many thanks as internet link is weak here!)
Rosie
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: June Ingram on Feb 18, 2014, 02:14 PM
Hi Rosie - Thank you very much for your wonderful and enlightening commentary !  June
Title: Re: Queen Victoria told to lower Red Ensign in Buenos Aires
Post by: cunardqueen on Feb 18, 2014, 05:24 PM
I wonder why they didnt call into the Falkland Islands, and spread the wealth from the tours and visits ashore there instead of some Argentine port..