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Author Topic: Clydebank Fitting out Basin to be filled in  (Read 15065 times)

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Offline Rob Lightbody

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Clydebank Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« on: Aug 25, 2011, 10:21 PM »
I received this message this evening which was greatly concerned me -

Quote

There is an article in this weeks Clydebank Post regarding the redevelopment of the former John Brown's shipyard.
I was shocked to see that they are planning to fill in or partially fill in the fitting out basin adjacent to the Titan Crane.
I think this would be an act of vandalism considering the history of the site, and also would ruin the setting of the Grade A listed Titan Crane.
I was a surprised that the fitting out basin was not a listed structure.

The Dawn Group/ Clydeside Regeneration are holding a public consultation prior to their planning application, they have an exhibition at Cart Street Clydebank on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd September 12:00-20:00 on Thursday, 13:00-19:00 on Friday and 10:00 to 12:00 on Saturday.

Do you think some of the people on the QE2 story website would be interested in trying to change the proposals?

Also I see on the Historic Scotland website it is possible to propose a building/ structure to be listed, perhaps that is what is needed to prevent this atrocity.
« Last Edit: Oct 27, 2011, 12:31 PM by Rob Lightbody »
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Offline Peter Mugridge

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #1 on: Aug 25, 2011, 10:25 PM »
Ubelievable! :o

On what grounds do the powers that be propose to carry out this act of cultural vandalism?
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Offline Rob Lightbody

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Offline Rob Lightbody

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #3 on: Aug 25, 2011, 10:33 PM »
I'm going to go along next week to find out more.
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Offline Peter Mugridge

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #4 on: Aug 25, 2011, 10:34 PM »
Hmmm... I'm sure with a bit of imagination they could make the basin a centrepiece that would enhance the development rather than fill it in.  For a start they talk about leiure and waterfront; I can think of several possibilities for the basin that would combine the two and probably increase the return on their investment, and I'm sure I'm not the only one...
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Offline Rob Lightbody

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #5 on: Aug 25, 2011, 10:43 PM »
They've been far too keen in Glasgow to fill in all the docks. Docks which nowadays we could never afford to construct.

If they do anything at all to alter the shape of that dock, one of the last intact bits of the shipyard, it will be a disgrace.
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Offline Peter Mugridge

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #6 on: Aug 25, 2011, 10:51 PM »
My first thoughts are that it would be an ideal point from which tourist sightseeing boats could arrive and depart ( I am thinking more of the sort of vessel that is used on the Thames in London, but have to ask is it possible to get Waverley in there or has the water silted up too much over the years?? ).

Then again, given the length and width of it, it should be possible to make a few uniquely histprical berths available for private yachts to ties up to - given the history of the area and the location if the full scale of the development goes ahead, then they could probably justifiably charge a premium for a mooring there.

Putting one of those waterfront restaurants at the very end of it, with the dining room windows facing down the length of the basin, would create a dramatic view; this could be tied in with one of the hotel proposals - have the restaurant on the ground floor, open to non residents, and build the hotel above making sure that the premium suites face out across the basin; they could have the best suite possibly at the exact height of, and just a few feet in front of, where the bow points of all three Great Queens would have been during fitting out.

And that's just the immediate three ideas...
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Offline Rod

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #7 on: Aug 25, 2011, 10:59 PM »
Maybe they could fit the QE2 in it and then fill it in?

Offline Sea Pigeon

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #8 on: Aug 25, 2011, 11:12 PM »
That would be a great idea, that would create jobs and encourage visitors to the town  ;)

Graeme

Offline Bob C.

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #9 on: Aug 26, 2011, 12:08 AM »
A travesty at a minimum. QM, QE, QE2 and others: such history that will be vandalized by the mere plackard marking the spot rather than the actual basin. This history rich location deserves much much more recognition. Do we cherish nothing anymore?

Offline No 736

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #10 on: Aug 26, 2011, 12:20 AM »
The fitting out basin is every bit as important as the Titan crane, the Glasgow school of art, the Hillhouse etc. etc.
This must not happen, there is no requirement for more supermarkets and the like. What are these people thinking about?

Offline Stowaway2k

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #11 on: Aug 26, 2011, 02:53 AM »


The article says "significant public realm work around the Titan Crane." but I'm curious as to where the specific information on filling in or partially filling in the fitting out basin comes from.

Is there another source for this information?

Offline Rob Lightbody

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #12 on: Aug 26, 2011, 07:23 AM »

The article says "significant public realm work around the Titan Crane." but I'm curious as to where the specific information on filling in or partially filling in the fitting out basin comes from.

Is there another source for this information?


the map that was in the clydebank post print edition showed the basin partly or fully filled in. I'll try to get an image, and will also find out more when I go to look at the planning application.
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Offline Alistair

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #13 on: Aug 26, 2011, 07:48 AM »
They might as well bulldoze the whole town into the basin and walk away. As an ex Bankie I'm at a loss as to why they want to remove what precious little is left of the town's past. They should be trying to put a ship into the basin. Any ship that was built at Brown's would do but I have my own preference of course! The ship could be a focal point for other developments as suggested on this thread already.

Offline cunardqueen

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #14 on: Aug 27, 2011, 09:44 AM »
I thinks its disgrace that they should even consider filing in the fitting out basin


And when you consider this little extension bit and what it means as part of the Queens history to even think to fill in this bit is a national disgrace, However to joe public, its probably only a space.... 
I am right in saying this was added for the fitting out of the original Queens and the bow would fit in this place here...

From the moment you first glimpsed the Queen,
 you just knew you were in for a very special time ahead.!

Offline Mauretania1907

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #15 on: Aug 28, 2011, 11:23 PM »
I HOPE NOT. Ideas about yachts, excursion ships mooring there, surrounded by some cafes, a maritime museum, hotels etc would be good. Filling it in is a daft, stupid idea, it would be the ideal place for a museum of maritime history.
O yes, if a certain ship could be berthed there, I possibly would visit, especially if I was welcome aboard.
O, by the way, I missed last nights chat-room, somehow I couldn't log on. I'm glad to see my favourite web-site this morning. When is the next live chat, please.

Offline Lynda Bradford

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #16 on: Aug 29, 2011, 09:09 AM »
The fitting out basin and the Titan Crane, at the former John Brown's shipyard is all that remains of the shipbuilding history of the town. What a disgrace that there are plans to fill in the fitting out basin, that accommodated the most famous ships in the world, rather than preserving it for future generations.  

When visiting the Titan Crane last year it was difficult to imagine the shipyard as it was in the 1960's as there was nothing there as a memory of the shipbuilding years.  Nothing apart from the crane and the fitting out basin.  I find it hard to understand the reasoning behind this plan.  There is the danger that the fitting out basin could be filled in, then the development plan is shelved and the town will have lost another part of it's link with the past and a unique feature that can never be reconstructed.  
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Offline Isabelle Prondzynski

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #17 on: Aug 29, 2011, 11:35 AM »
I too find it inconceivable that anyone could even entertain the idea of filling in the fitting-out basin.

It, and the Titan Crane, are the only reasons why I would want to visit Clydebank at all! The Titan Crane would become pretty meaningless without the adjacent basin -- but with it, it is still possible to imagine something of the industry and the hugeness of the construction that went on here in times gone by.

If Clydebank wants to develop itself and become more attractive, the first thing must be to work with the assets it already has -- and the crane and basin are the foremost among these.

Perhaps the old gate into John Browne's should also be preserved? It is sad enough that everything behind that gate has been demolished...

Surely complaining about the fact that Britain is no longer constructing ships makes no sense if at the same time nothing is being done to sustain a sense of pride in the skills and the investments that made this great tradition possible while it lasted.

Offline Rob Lightbody

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #18 on: Sep 01, 2011, 10:45 PM »
I went along tonight, and was very disappointed indeed.  Yes there are potential plans to partially or completely fill in the fitting out basin.

Britain is becoming a country of identikit Huge supermarkets with huge concrete carparks and attached large petrol stations and, yes, thats whats in store for the site of the greatest shipyard in the world.  There appears to be little room for heritage or history, and just a huge desire to "redevelop" the site at any cost.

I genuinely find the site much, much more interesting and attractive as it is now, than as proposed.  I realise I am not a resident of Clydebank, and therefore maybe my views count for little.  But this is a town with a huge amount of its character either erased by war, or erased by poor planning decisions, and it looks to me set to decision.

Come to Clydebank - home of a really big Asda!  You'll Love it!
« Last Edit: Sep 01, 2011, 10:49 PM by Rob Lightbody »
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Offline Isabelle Prondzynski

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #19 on: Sep 02, 2011, 12:18 AM »
That seems like a nightmare coming true...

What was the response of the rest of the participants? Did you feel you were getting some support for your views?

Offline No 736

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #20 on: Sep 02, 2011, 12:32 AM »
Hello Rob, thanks for going along tonight and keeping us all up to date.
You mention the desire to redevelop the site at any cost, well of course it is the supermarket chain that will bare the financial cost, while the council will be happy to go along with this as long as they do not have to put their hands in their pockets.
Any councillor voting for this development should be ashamed of themselves.
This historic site surley deserves a more sympathetic and long term plan, there are enough supermarkets in the area.
Ts Queen Mary, HMY Britannia or PS Waverley could all be crowd pullers to the area for starters.
Steve S.

Offline Chris Frame

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #21 on: Sep 05, 2011, 02:25 AM »
It seems as if there's no respect for history these days...
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Offline Bob C.

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #22 on: Sep 05, 2011, 02:38 AM »
I just looked at the latest Google Earth satellite image and it shows a lot of vacant area to the West of the university.  It doesn't surprise me that the development is going to the first company with a plan. Not sure who the current land owner is but it looks like money talks once again; unforunately much to history's detriment.

Offline Bruce Nicholls

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #23 on: Sep 05, 2011, 09:43 AM »
Trouble is they will pay huge sums for the site. Good article in Telegraph on Saturday on this very subject about Malton North Yorks. Residents even don't want it but council have sold car park to supermarket for £5M. Against these odds it's a done deal.

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #24 on: Sep 21, 2011, 08:13 AM »
Last night on BBC2 there was a programme about the various shipyards of Britain entitled --"Reel history of Britain". The main topic and the place visited most was the John Browns shipyard. There was facinating footage of the RMS Queen Mary being built, and of it sailing down the Clyde for the first time--AND it was in full colour!! A trip up the Titan crane and a view of what was John Browns shipyard was included. The programme also went to different shipyards including H and W where we saw the sister ship of Titanic being built. A tribute to the Jarrow march and many other shipyards was shown. I am going to transfer the programme to disc as a real "Keepsake" of how our proud shipbuilding heritage has been reduced to almost nothing. Anyone else watch the programme?

Offline Barrie Evans

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #25 on: Sep 21, 2011, 08:57 AM »
Last night on BBC2 there was a programme about the various shipyards of Britain entitled --"Reel history of Britain". The main topic and the place visited most was the John Browns shipyard. There was facinating footage of the RMS Queen Mary being built, and of it sailing down the Clyde for the first time--AND it was in full colour!! A trip up the Titan crane and a view of what was John Browns shipyard was included. The programme also went to different shipyards including H and W where we saw the sister ship of Titanic being built. A tribute to the Jarrow march and many other shipyards was shown. I am going to transfer the programme to disc as a real "Keepsake" of how our proud shipbuilding heritage has been reduced to almost nothing. Anyone else watch the programme?
Hi yes i watched the start of the programme, and rushed ito the lounge to press the record button.  I was amazed at the footage and i thought all of the members up in Scotland are going to love this. Im glad that you managed to watch it Bob . It must of bought back some wonderful memories for you.We actualy had to go out at that time, but i will watch the whole recording later to day.
Kind regards  
Barrie Evans
« Last Edit: Sep 21, 2011, 11:55 AM by Isabelle Prondzynski »

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #26 on: Sep 21, 2011, 12:01 PM »
Hi Barrie, I hope to enjoy the short programme. It did indeed bring back memories for me--my late uncle was one of the men who helped build all 3 of the Queens. It was very nice to see the "Queen Mary" going down the Clyde for the first time--and in full colour as well.!! It is terrible to see that there is nothing left of what was a famous yard--(John Browns)--and of course many other yards as well.

Offline No 736

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #27 on: Sep 21, 2011, 11:35 PM »
Rob, mentioned in an earlier post that Historic Scotland may be able to list the basin as a protected structure has anyone looked into this?

Offline Twynkle

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #28 on: Sep 22, 2011, 12:32 AM »
Rob, mentioned in an earlier post that Historic Scotland may be able to list the basin as a protected structure has anyone looked into this?

A protected 'monument', even!

The Titan crane became listed in 1989
http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/heritage/historicandlistedbuildings/listedbuildingsresults.htm

and to contact Historic Scotland:
http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/about.htm

Does anyone know the names of the MP and MEP for the specific area of the Fitting-out Basin?
QE2 had been waiting alongside in Dubai for what seemed like ages...Please don't leave her looking more like a Hotel-with-a-Hull than the greatest Liner afloat - Please restore her Lifeboats and Tenders to where they truly belong - she looks naked without them - please spare her this ignominy.

Offline CAP

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #29 on: Sep 22, 2011, 01:13 PM »
I do not wish to detract from the importance of this thread but thought it still worthwhile posting about another dock that has been filled-in but during its lifetime had the pleasure of accommodating QE2.

There is another topic in the forum that discusses the 1974 incident of boiler contamination, this was when the passengers had to be removed and the ship limp back to New York.  Well, her home in NY was the Todd Shipyard, a long established ship repair business.  During he stay she rested in a dry-dock that has now been filled-in depsite a public outcry to save the yard.  

As part of my research I tried to find exactly whereabouts the yard was and having in succeeded in finding the location amazed at what is there now!  The location now forms part of an Ikea outlet!  Having delved further, and you can spot this from Google Earth, the shop's car park actually covers the exact location of the dry-dock, the outline of which is painted into the car-park!

For those that have embarked/disembarked from QM2 at Red Hook, Brooklyn the store is actually just beyond the terminal headland, the ship actually passes the location on her way out.  

Flat-packing gone mad!
« Last Edit: Sep 22, 2011, 06:20 PM by CAP »

Offline Peter Mugridge

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #30 on: Sep 22, 2011, 02:39 PM »
I've found it.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=brooklyn&hl=en&ll=40.67229,-74.014388&spn=0.004931,0.012317&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6

Now, while that is a nod to the heritage of the area where the car park is, it is most certainly NOT what we want  on the Clyde; we want the actual dock.  Maybe those MPs / MEPs / etc should be sent a link to this thread...
"It is a capital mistake to allow any mechanical object to realise that you are in a hurry!"

Offline Twynkle

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #31 on: Sep 22, 2011, 07:12 PM »
Hoping it's still not too late - and after a bit more research,
what do you think about the following letter to both John (now Lord) McFall ex-Labour MP for Clydebank?
with another in similar vein to the current MSP, Gil Paterson

YOUR COMMENTS AND SUGGESTIONS WELCOME!

Dear...,

Re. The preservation of the important area of the dockyard at Clydebank known as John Brown's Fitting Out Basin, alongside the Titan Crane.

I am writing to ask for your advice and help.
You may already be aware that there are plans and a proposal for this historic wet dock beside the Titan Crane (Listed in 1989) to be filled in.
This proposal is currently under discussion.  With your detailed knowledge of the area, hopefully you will agree that, as the Basin and the Titan Crane are the only remains of what was Scotland's most important contribution to the shipping industry in Britain in the twentieth century, they both need to remain in situ and preserved in their present state. Preserving one without the other will only serve to devalue the significance of both!
Currently both play a significant role as reminders, and add usefully to the history of all that was 'Clydebuilt' at Clydebank.

It would be good to hear your thoughts. And hopefully you won't mind my asking -  if it's at all possible, please could you ask the planners and others currently involved to have a re-think specifically regarding preservation of the Basin as it is, alongside the Titan Crane.
The planned 30 foot memorial to those who have died of asbestos-related disease, together with a change of plan for the Fitting-out Basin would be a great sign of recognition and respect particularly for the relatives of the tens of thousands who risked their lives in giving so much to the industry.


I understand that it is the Dawn Group Ltd, (Alan Macdonald, Chairman)
Glasgow G2 2PG
T: 0141 285 6700
F: 0141 285 6767

and Clydeside Regeneration Ltd,  Clydebank G81 1UG
together with the West Dunbartonshire Council who are involved in the planning and re-construction of the area concerned.

With all good wishes etc

« Last Edit: Sep 22, 2011, 08:26 PM by Twynkle »
QE2 had been waiting alongside in Dubai for what seemed like ages...Please don't leave her looking more like a Hotel-with-a-Hull than the greatest Liner afloat - Please restore her Lifeboats and Tenders to where they truly belong - she looks naked without them - please spare her this ignominy.

Offline cunardqueen

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #32 on: Sep 22, 2011, 07:29 PM »
It will be good or interesting to hear the reply..
Well done!
From the moment you first glimpsed the Queen,
 you just knew you were in for a very special time ahead.!

Offline Rob Lightbody

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #33 on: Sep 22, 2011, 07:34 PM »
Rosie,

Thanks for that.

Please see attached a scan of the form they gave people to fill in if they bothered to turn up to look at the plans.

Please note - I'm not personally pursuing this futher because (a) I don't have time and (b) nobody in the town seems to care.
« Last Edit: Sep 22, 2011, 07:36 PM by Rob Lightbody »
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Offline Twynkle

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #34 on: Sep 22, 2011, 08:29 PM »
Rob - I'd gladly fill in and submit one of the forms
However, so that I can send it 'personally' and without the TQS watermark,
please  - is there time for you to email me one as a word doc?
Many thanks
Rosie

QE2 had been waiting alongside in Dubai for what seemed like ages...Please don't leave her looking more like a Hotel-with-a-Hull than the greatest Liner afloat - Please restore her Lifeboats and Tenders to where they truly belong - she looks naked without them - please spare her this ignominy.

Offline Rob Lightbody

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Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #35 on: Sep 22, 2011, 08:56 PM »
I wouldn't bother to be honest.

The people to contact are the councillors and politicians - not the developers.  The questions are heavily loaded!
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Offline highlander0108

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #36 on: Sep 22, 2011, 11:20 PM »
I wouldn't bother to be honest.

The people to contact are the councillors and politicians - not the developers.  The questions are heavily loaded!

This is incredibly sad and maddening to see happening.  I just cannot see how completely ignoring the significance of the site is in any way good for the redevelopment of the site and long term success of the Titan Crane historic site.  Whoever is doing the site master planning did not originally propose filling this area in from the renderings I saw anyway.  This sounds completely completely like short-sighted low end developer work here.  What good is the crane without the basin to relate to? 
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Offline No 736

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #37 on: Sep 23, 2011, 11:25 PM »
Hi Rosie, please go ahead with your letter.
I have written to Historic Scotland and await a response.
The more people who show their concern and discust/dismay the better.
Steve.

Offline Twynkle

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #38 on: Sep 23, 2011, 11:40 PM »
Hi Steve

Thanks for your post - Yes, they'll go in Monday's post.
You don't by chance have an address in Scotland for John McFall do you?
and for Gil Paterson?
I'll send them to the London and Scottish parliaments
but it's the summer recess at the moment - and who knows when the letters will reach the recipients!

It would be interesting to know whether the people i/c of the Titan Crane are objecting...
Rosie
QE2 had been waiting alongside in Dubai for what seemed like ages...Please don't leave her looking more like a Hotel-with-a-Hull than the greatest Liner afloat - Please restore her Lifeboats and Tenders to where they truly belong - she looks naked without them - please spare her this ignominy.

Offline No 736

Re: Fitting out Basin to be filled in
« Reply #39 on: Sep 23, 2011, 11:48 PM »
Hello again Rosie,
Here is one contact address,


Constituency Office:
Gil Paterson MSP
Unit 16
Clyde Business Centre
Clydebank
G81 1PF