A bit of maritime history - Queen Mary

[Dr. Edmund Carus]

Hello there,

In some research I've got in hand I came across this plan showing a very early concept for the QM. The Aquitania influence is very strong indeed.

Cheers!

[ancoaster78]

Great as it might have looked 20 years earlier, imagine how that would have looked alongside the Normandie if they'd built it, a national embarressment!

I always wondered what if Queen Mary had been built a little more streamlined, maybe more like the Queen Elizabeth how it would have looked....

Interesting picture, thanks for sharing!

[Dr. Edmund Carus]

Hello again,

I'm a bit of a ship historian and one route I follow is to look at toy ships as these can reflect the design (often not fully defined) when the model was drafted. If you look at the very old Dinky model of  "534" and the Queen Mary note where the ventillators are near the mainmast! She never appeared like this!

I am chasing up some info on the France - soon I hope to follow.

Cheers!

[ancoaster78]

Is that the same mould used as for the Minic Queen Mary do you know? I sold one of those on ebay a few months ago, never ever thought to check the accuracy of it against the real ship though!

Any information you dig up on the France i'd be very interested in, I love that ship second only to QE2! Those funnels, that bow....

Cheers, Andrew

[Bob C.]

Outstanding photo Edmund.  I agree QM would not have been able to hold her own on the trans-Atlantic market had she followed in the Aquitania mold.  The transom stern alone would have dated her as an antique from her maiden voyage on.  Her designers and Cunard made the right call.

[Dr. Edmund Carus]

Andrew, the MINIC mould is mych more recent and is pretty accurate conforming to the QM. Does your MINIC model have bands on the funnels please?

As for the France, look at this MINIC model - it was introduced before the real ship's design was finalized. Hence the older "Liberte" style funnels and the decks which later altered a great deal.

Cheers!

[ancoaster78]

I don't have the Minic model anymore, I sold my entire 1:1200 & 1:1250 scale collection (except QE2) ship by ship on ebay last year. It was the 1970's model with plastic base and wheels, and plastic funnels with the bands put on as stickers.

I have seen that model of France, really does look sad without the wings on the funnels thoo! Never looked at it closely enough to see that the decks were rong as well thoo, I never owned one. Such a shame they never corrected it later in the production run.

I had a Mercator mode of France, was very very nice but the decks were all the wrong colours in my opinion. Thier United States was much better....

Cheers 

[stowaway2k]

The transom stern alone would have dated her as an antique from her maiden voyage on.  Her designers and Cunard made the right call.

But her well deck did.  Many in the shipping world at the time were very critical of her dated look, and did accuse her of simply being the Aquitania refined a bit.
Of course the Queen Mary was designed in the late 1920's even though she didn't enter service until 1936.   
Just a few years later, the Queen Elizabeth appeared on the scene looking much more sleek and modern... sharper bow, no well deck, no ventilators cluttering her open decks, and no guy-wires on the two funnels.

[Dr. Edmund Carus]

Yes the QM was dated with that well deck. I have three line diagrams - too big to attach - showing the QM, Oceanic (never completed) and Normandie. The QM was the most dated in appearance - perhaps Cunard preferred to "play safe" with designs it knew!

The QE is rumoured ro have had a few handling problems with the absence of the forward well deck and the added bow anchor - causing "a bow heavy problem" as the rest of the underwater hull was 100% QM.

Going back to the France, the best 1/1250 model comes from Classic Ship Collection. Their QE is also exceptional. Their website is www.classic-ship.de/

Cheers!

[stowaway2k]

- perhaps Cunard preferred to "play safe" with designs it knew!

The QE is rumoured ro have had a few handling problems with the absence of the forward well deck and the added bow anchor - causing "a bow heavy problem" as the rest of the underwater hull was 100% QM.

A picture like this says it all


It is known that the Russian designer of the Normandie's hull first took his designs to Cunard, and they wanted nothing to do with it.
The rest is start of one of the greatest maritime rivalries.
Wasn't the purpose of the well deck to ship seas away from the bulk of the superstructure?  I believe Cunard quickly realized that with a ship like the Queen Mary, the well deck was simply a relic of the past.  The only other ship of similar size, Normandie, didn't have one and Cunard regretted their decision to put one on Queen Mary... as it did subject her to the "old fashioned" criticism, even though she was nearly state-of-the-art in most other ways.
I hadn't read of any problems with QE's bow design, just that those who captained both ships were sure that QE could take the Blue Ribband.  But why should Cunard bother when they held the bragging rights to having both the world's fastest ship with the Queen Mary and the world's largest ship with the Queen Elizabeth.
QE and Normandie would never have the chance to go up against one another.

[stowaway2k]

Queen Mary in WWII

http://vimeo.com/3471493

[Dr. Edmund Carus]

Here's another smashing picture of "Liner's Row" in WW2. See:

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/6937/28439.html?1196295722

and from this:

[Bob C.]

Edmund,
  Do you or does anyone else know how long before the Normandie fire that the berth next to her (where QM sits in the above photo) opened up?  I've seen these relatively famous photos with various combinations of Normandie, QM, Aquitania, QE and Ile de France but fortunately once Normandie caught fire and capsized at her berth there was no other ship next to her to capsize into.  I can only imagine the mess that would have made regrdless of the ship at that berth.  Does anyone know if it was coincidentally unoccupied and, if so, for how long or did a ship have to be moved to fight the fire?

[Dr. Edmund Carus]

What an interesting question. I honestly don't know how long the adjacent berth had been vacant. But as Normandie was being converted by the USN, perhaps space was needed to access her?

Cheers!

[Dr. Edmund Carus]

I have this "different" picture from http://www.panoramio.com/photo/18684605 saved. You will see what a terrible mess would have happened if Berth 90 was occupied!!

Cheers!

[Bob C.]

What an interesting question. I honestly don't know how long the adjacent berth had been vacant. But as Normandie was being converted by the USN, perhaps space was needed to access her?

Cheers!

OK, game on.  The question is now eating away at me and I am looking for answers.  I did find this page (http://www.ww2troopships.com/ships/q/queenmary/cruiserecord1942.htm) that shows that after QM arrived in New York on 12 Jan 1942 from Trinidad, she departed on 26 Jan for Boston for a 3 week drydock at Boston Naval Shipyard.  If she was moored at Pier 90, this could have left the berth open for up to 14 days before Normandie's fire and capsizing.  The big question is: was QM parked at Pier 90 before she went to Boston and if so, did any other ship park there between 26 Jan and 09 Feb?  QM's log books or better yet the PANY logs hold the answer.  Just need to find where the are and if I can access them.   

[Dr. Edmund Carus]

Yes the QM logs would really help. Other ships using Pier 90 could include the QE, Aquitania and Mauretania(II). Try this source - they might be able to help:

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/


Cheers!

[stowaway2k]

Present-day on the Queen Mary...

[Twynkle]

Currently, There are some amazing photographs advertised on ebay.com

The seller is cornerstoneimages

Here's an example:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1961-Luxury-Liner-Row-Chelsea-Piers-Aerial-View-NYC_W0QQitemZ270611583626QQcategoryZ48QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3911.m7QQ_trkparmsZalgo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D6914734819753021731#ht_3538wt_1073

- scroll down this page for a real treat!